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Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain
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Can someone explain to me how, too much of a closed hip angle can create low back pain on the bike also when I pedal one leg I cant get my leg over around 10 oclock to about 12-1oclock is that a sign of to much of a closed hip angle? Thanks
Last edited by: SamYO: May 28, 15 9:07
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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If in the normal course of riding your hip angle is "too closed", you'll make up for a lack of hip flexion with spinal flexion. This in turn could put your spine in a position that is awkward or load your spine with forces it is not suited to bear for long periods of time.

What too closed means is almost certain to vary widely between people.

You can use a butterknife to turn screws for a while, but if you keep doing it, you'll damage that butterknife.
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
If in the normal course of riding your hip angle is "too closed", you'll make up for a lack of hip flexion with spinal flexion. This in turn could put your spine in a position that is awkward or load your spine with forces it is not suited to bear for long periods of time.

What too closed means is almost certain to vary widely between people.

You can use a butterknife to turn screws for a while, but if you keep doing it, you'll damage that butterknife.

The thing is the more i close my hip angle and move the saddle back and have it tilted down I can get a neutral lower back from my sacrum to my upper thoracic spine some how that loads the spine even when it is neutral like that
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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i don't see how one causes the other. but a cockpit-too-long can give you low back pain. if you're closing your hip angle by moving your saddle back, you're also lengthening your cockpit: voila, low back pain.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Im 6ft 3 on a 57 toptube with a -10 degree 140 stem slammed, with a 25mm layback seatpost. with a selle smp slammed back probably a sign of over rotation then..
Last edited by: SamYO: May 28, 15 10:43
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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can't say for sure, but, slammed back smp + 140mm stem is as much a recipe for a cockpit too long as i've ever seen.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone explain to me how, too much of a closed hip angle can create low back pain on the bike

It doesn't.

But poor posture and muscle engagement can. Don't worry about one legged pedaling. Concentrate on being smooth with *both* legs.

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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Alot of people do say they never seen a position so horizontal to the ground before, But I use to be at the other end aswell, an uncomfy saddle and posteriorly tilting the extreme, spinae erectors just keep firing
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I was just testing it for a few pedal strokes to see where I found it harder to pedal and it was right at 10-11oclock in the stroke. I think stablize my pelvis with my erectors when I want to stay rock solid and smooth without any body movement
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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your spinal erectors are going to keep firing as long as your upper arm is not perpendicular to the weight it is supposed to support. you need to rest your upper body weight, skeletally, and you can't do that if your shoulder angle is too great. it's your shoulder angle, not your hip angle, that's causing your low back pain, and it's your spinal erectors that are sore, from holding up all that cantilevered weight.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
your spinal erectors are going to keep firing as long as your upper arm is not perpendicular to the weight it is supposed to support. you need to rest your upper body weight, skeletally, and you can't do that if your shoulder angle is too great. it's your shoulder angle, not your hip angle, that's causing your low back pain, and it's your spinal erectors that are sore, from holding up all that cantilevered weight.

Im talking road bike not sure if that was for Tri/TT but I guess it still goes for a road bike?
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, talking road bike does make a pretty big difference in this conversation, and my answers were specifically for tri bike position. so i pretty much take back all of my statements and prescriptions. i think i'd need a photo before i could answer with any confidence.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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http://postimg.org/.../1q7li7fuc/aaace581/

Those are some images of my TT bike and road from a couple of years back, with different positions and saddles thats how I use to ride with lots of low back pain.. I dont think I have an updated picture of me with the latest fit I will try get one

in the black kit they are around 2013-2014 the orange kit from around 2011-2012
Last edited by: SamYO: May 28, 15 11:36
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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in the black kit, aboard the dalkiia, that's a perfect position. road position looks good too, tho i'd just add two observations:

1. i can't tell for certain, because i can't get a really good look at it, but that looks like it might maybe be a tad tall of a saddle height.
2. bars look low. might be fine. i just wonder if those bars aren't north of 15% of your saddle height.

so, let's say bb to saddle top, midway between the tip and tail, is 80cm. 15% of that is 12cm i'm talking about the vertical displacement. so, hold one end of a 48" level on the top of the saddle, hover it over the 31.8mm section of the bars, measure from the underside of the level to the top of the bars. the more that it's greater than 12cm (or whatever 15% of your saddle height is) the more you're diverging from what is inside the realm of the norm. 11% or 12% is probably the mean for competitive cyclists, tho that goes down as the rider is shorter, up as the rider is taller (often just because you can't get the bars low enough on a very small bike).

still, let's say you're 17%, maybe 20%, of saddle height. 20% is what your TT bike would be for saddle to pad elevation. you can't have your road bar elevation be equal to your TT bike saddle to pad elevation.

i'd be interested to know those numbers.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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My back hurts looking at that position.

Are people naturally flexible, or do you guys do yoga to get so low?
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What I know at the mo is that my saddle hights have been around 79-83cm

I got a retul fitting and that saddle height was set to 83cm the saddle to bar drop was something 18.1cm and said I can take another 4cm off the front.. But the adamo saddle pushing into with it slammed forward.. so I reversed it back when I was a bit more comfty around 81cm 81.5cm and it slightly further back so I could perch of the front

My road bike is at 81cm currently I think my inseam is 90cm too

In them pictures if I remember are ranging from 81-82cm

I cant really sort my TT bike at the mo because the seatpost is cracked, waiting on a new one
Last edited by: SamYO: May 28, 15 12:08
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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first, i'm paying ZERO attention to anything you write (i'm not listening! i'm not listening!) until you preface every metric with a note about whether it's road or tri.

second, your saddle height, measured the same way, has varied by 4cm?

third, that 18cm drop, that was ROAD? and, was it to bar top or bar center? if to bar top, that's just too much. again, that's aggressive for tri/tt, let alone road.

but, i need you to be more specific about what is road, what is tri, and where things are measured to. and what your saddle heights are now, the way i'm asking you to measure them, both road and tri/tt.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
first, i'm paying ZERO attention to anything you write (i'm not listening! i'm not listening!) until you preface every metric with a note about whether it's road or tri.

second, your saddle height, measured the same way, has varied by 4cm?

third, that 18cm drop, that was ROAD? and, was it to bar top or bar center? if to bar top, that's just too much. again, that's aggressive for tri/tt, let alone road.

but, i need you to be more specific about what is road, what is tri, and where things are measured to. and what your saddle heights are now, the way i'm asking you to measure them, both road and tri/tt.

Right this the information I have from my latest Time trial bike fit the top picture in the PDF file I was pretty comfy and set a PB in that position. So I worked back from the retul fitting to that. But the seatpost is cracked so i can no longer do anything about it at this time

PDF https://www.scribd.com/...kiia-F1-ZERO-Sam-pdf


Road bike for Road racing/crits I will try get an updated picture of the fit on that from some crit racing I've been doing recently
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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so, first we have to decide what you want to talk about, your road position or your tri position.

just as an aside, if your saddle height is 830 the vertical component of that has got to be less than 830, right? maybe, i don't know, what, 800? 810? so, if your armpad stack is 674, how can your armrest elevation be 18cm? i'm sure i'm making a mistake, i just can't think of what it would be. i just suspect your armpad stack is more like 630mm or 640mm. can you ring up your fitter and ask him this question? or push him to this thread on the forum, so that he can answer it?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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BTW this is the retul fitting in action

http://www.dailymotion.com/...0150113-111206_sport
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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i think the position's great. i think the frame could be 1 or 2 sizes bigger. somebody is selling you tiny frames, both road and tri.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I wont be able to do that I got the fit back in October last year

I'll try get a couple of pictures/video of me on my road bike.. over the weekend and see what you think of the positioning.. And I will get the measurements from BB- to top of saddle, tip of saddle to center of stem saddle tilt etc..

And once I get a seatpost for my TT bike and ride for a few days with the previous fit I had before the retul fit I will post that up and see what may need to be done
Last edited by: SamYO: May 28, 15 12:39
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [SamYO] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone have any insight on bike position and long term spinal health? Road or TT. Can a curved spine that shows good wind tunnel and power results have a negative effect on long-term spinal health? Are we hurting ourselves to get fast?
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Re: Explain to me how too much of a closed hip angle can cause low back pain [monteyo] [ In reply to ]
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Well a well didn't evolve to ride a bike. It's going to cause posture dysfunction no matter what. You can maintain posture with myofascial release and corrective exercises etc
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