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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves

Some of the other Alcatraz tris and swims (ultimate escape, sharkfest, etc.) have you jump off the boat and swim ~50m to the deep water start. It gives you a chance to adjust to the water and entry shock before you have to go 100%. Probably safer, but they don't get the good visual of the pros all diving off the boat.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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I'm so sorry to hear this news and hope the best for the family/friends.

I brought up the subject in a previous thread about staggered swim starts and still consider it a safer way forward. While Alcatraz is semi-staggered, I would like to see IM branded races move towards testing the Challenge method. I've done 5 IM branded and 1 Challenge and had my best swim experience during the Challenge race.

As triathlon and IM's become like the new "marathon," more and more novices will just sign up w/out the proper education or training. I didn't even think about an IM until 5 years of consistent triathlon training and always tell people that the swim is the shortest part, but the most stressful, thus just tell newbies getting beat up during the swim to consider stopping mid swim just to look for open space which could be 2 meters to your right/left. Calm down and don't think you'll swim 1:30/100's during a race if you've been training at 1:45's. You'll just hyper ventilate and panic which doesn't bode well w/ 100's of people smashing you.

My previous thread on staggered starts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Lou3000] [ In reply to ]
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Lou3000 wrote:
It is a tough swim, but that jump is an adrenaline explosion.

Adrenalin rush is often cited as a contributor to triathlon swim deaths. In other words, is the swim itself a secondary cause of death? The "fight-or-flight" response is supposed to be physiologically adaptive in times of acute mental stress. So, why are triathletes jumping off a ferry into cold water not protected by the stress response?
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [nickwhite] [ In reply to ]
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I raced yesterday too and it was the toughest conditions I have seen of the 3 times I have done the swim. First time was strong current and flat water - Beautiful. Second was slack tide with big swells - slow, but manageable.

Yesterday was really choppy and unpredictable. I think it just took a lot of patience and there wasn't really any way to get into a rhythm. I finished in 41 minutes, which put me around 500th out of the water (out of ~1500). I had to put in a charge the last 500 yards to not overshoot the beach.

Looks like you had a strong swim, but I would say anyone in the second half of the field would have struggled mightily in order to get across the current. I heard a lot of "swim across the river" and sighting landmarks, but no mention of the speed of the current or when you should change your sighting lines.

Love the bike and run course, but it's just really tough to predict the conditions of the bay. I wasn't scared of drowning, but there were a few moments I thought I might be climbing up the rocks and running back to the swim exit. Oh and 51 is a LOT colder than 58.

/kj

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having done Alcatraz twice when it was in June, I think the first minute could be very disturbing as you jump into the cold water and realize you are in the middle of the bay so it is swim or swim, plus the rush of people swimming and jumping around you. I remember my HR always getting really high really quick and then after a minute or two everything will settle down and you will start thinking not reacting and executing your swim calmly.

I never felt unsafe and the jet-skies and safety personnel were always visible (thanks to one I shaved some time my first year as I was swimming the wrong angle but due to fog couldn't see the city very well)

Too sad to hear of another case

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ivansie] [ In reply to ]
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very sad.

Do the studies show what heart rhythms victims have at the time of death? I'm curious if quicker defibrillation would make a difference. I guess using an AED on a boat could be problematic.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [avatar78] [ In reply to ]
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Thoughts go out to the family just down the road from me.

http://www.statesman.com/...hlon-remember/nWgZq/

American-Statesman Staff
A day after he died during a California triathlon, Austin attorney Ross Ehlinger was remembered by friends as a passionate advocate for youth sports who once appeared in court with a black eye after being hit by an errant baseball.
Ehlinger, 46, suffered an apparent heart attack Sunday, moments after the start of the Escape from Alcatraz triathlon, race officials said. The race began in the cold and choppy water of San Francisco Bay.
Friends said Ehlinger, who grew up in San Antonio and attended St. Mary’s University School of Law, loved adventure. He and his wife, Jena, had three children: Sam, 14; Jake 12; and Morgen, 10.
Family friend Steve Harren said Jena used to joke about her husband’s desire to do triathlons, calling him an overgrown kid. “In a loving way she’d say, ‘Look at my crazy husband doing a tri at age (almost) 50,” Harren said.
But Ehlinger prided himself on staying in shape, and he had recently returned to the sport of triathlon after taking a few years off to focus on coaching. He was director of the Westlake Pop Warner football league and had coached for the Western Hills baseball league.
“Every kid in Westlake knows Ross Ehlinger — there’s not one boy or girl whom he doesn’t know or hasn’t coached,” said Ehlinger’s training partner, Lance Thompson. The two competed in another California triathlon last August, and they prepared together for the Alcatraz event. They traveled to San Francisco with their wives together for Sunday’s race.
“There’s nobody like Ross. He’s a country boy living in a city town. He’s the type of person you hope your kids are like,” Thompson said. He noted that Ehlinger rarely spent money on himself and liked to post favorite quotes around his house for inspiration.
Ehlinger had tried a dozen cases in front of County Court at Law Judge David Phillips. “He was a spectacular human being. I never saw him lose a case, whether he was on the plaintiff or the defendant’s side,” Phillips said. “Juries loved him because he was so genuine, and they could tell he was not telling them anything he didn’t believe himself.”
The attorney, who specialized in insurance litigation, loved to talk about coaching and was teased for wearing short-sleeved shirts under his suit coats. “If he could have got away with a clip-on tie, he’d have worn it. He was uncomfortable in a lawyer-type uniform,” Phillips said.
Family friend Paige Alam said that for Ehlinger, “His family was his everything, his whole world. When we’d go paragliding with the kids and we were all nervous, he’d yell, ‘This is supposed to be fun!’ His heart was so big, he was such a gift for us all.”
Ehlinger had competed in triathlons — including the Escape From Alcatraz event — before. Because of a bad knee, he had planned to skip the run portion of the Alcatraz triathlon.
Water temperatures Sunday were 51 degrees. The race took place about three months earlier than in previous years, but even in June water temperatures typically hover between 52 and 56 degrees, said race director Bill Burke. Ehlinger was wearing a wetsuit, and Burke said he didn’t believe the cold water contributed to his death.
The death was the first at the Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon, which includes a 1.5-mile swim from the site of the former federal prison, an 18-mile bike ride and an eight-mile run. Triathlon support crew noticed someone in distress shortly after the 7:30 a.m. start of the race, Burke said. They performed CPR while pulling Ehlinger to shore and on land, but could not revive him, he said.
Burke directs several other triathlons, including the Aquaphor New York City Triathlon, which has recorded three deaths, all cardiac related, in recent years. Most deaths that occur during triathlons occur during the swim portion of the race, where there’s little time to react if anything goes wrong.
About 1,700 athletes started the Alcatraz race on Sunday, and about 25 dropped out after getting in the water, Burke said.
“My hearts and prayers are with the family and friends. It was just a sad day yesterday,” Burke said.
A 2012 study by USA Triathlon, the sport’s governing body, found a death rate of one per 76,000 participants in the sport. Most were attributed to sudden cardiac death.



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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves

I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

Steve did Alcatraz yesterday with the intention of picking up pointers for his race. I wonder if/how this will change things.

(You doing the Sprint or Olympic?)
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.


Way back in 07 I think it was I saw my first video for the start of the Sharkfest, jumping off the boat, and my first thought was "I have to do that!" I've since done 2 more swims or swim/runs, and still think it's one of the most amazing starts in racing. Safest? Maybe not, as you are jumping into some pretty cold water. It's definitely a shock. And yes, couple years ago at the challenge as I was bobbing back up the girl behind me jumped, and landed on my kidney. That one hurt.

But there is no way to provide a warmup. Swimming in aquatic park (if that's where it is ending) is useless since you've got the whole walk to the pier/boat ride out time. I think it's up to racers to prepare themselves properly for the conditions, including practice swims, regular checkups, heart evals, etc.

Wildflower and Oceanside also allow very little warmup in cold water, but at least it is some, and there's probably ways to expand that. here, there is no way to get around the first jump, other than having the start 5 minutes after the jump (then you're waiting and drifting in cold water). I fear the Alcatraz races may be at risk with the (not unreasonable) push for warmups.
Last edited by: ChrisM: Mar 4, 13 12:38
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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WelshinPhilly wrote:
klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.

Steve did Alcatraz yesterday with the intention of picking up pointers for his race. I wonder if/how this will change things.

(You doing the Sprint or Olympic?)

Go long or go home.

His web site refused to recognize the IFORGOT discout, and the web page for his season pass wasn't found, so that is one expensive race. You charge for a unique experience, you had better deliver a unique experience.

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I was thinking about that one to but figured the flys at Devilman were food enough before Eagleman. They kind of make you happy to go into the snake infested irrigation pond :0)

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Atak Kat] [ In reply to ]
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With the talk about videos, I swam next to a gentleman for a bit who backstroked the whole thing with a GoPro strapped to his chest. He appeared to be a very confident swimmer as he was backstroking as fast or faster than most mid-FOP freestylers. I would love to see that video for a variety of reasons.

Honestly, I didn't think the swim was that bad yesterday. I will admit I got a little freaked out at the amount of water I was swallowing, but I also sort of blamed myself. I was warned ahead of time that this is a race where it is advantageous to be able to breathe comfortably off your left side, but I still went into it only sticking to my default right side pattern, face facing the predominate swell direction.

All in all though, I can understand why people were uncomfortable in yesterday’s conditions. I swim regularly in the ocean in cold water and swell and I found the conditions yesterday challenging but not unreasonable. However, without that prior experience my perception would have likely been quite different.
Last edited by: tgarson: Mar 4, 13 15:40
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [MarkM] [ In reply to ]
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My thoughts are with this athlete's family today. My wife and I enjoyed breakfast in the city with our kids, and are now on our flight back to Seattle. I can't imagine sending them home next to an empty seat.


Sad to think that someone on that boat didn't come home. Hopefully he enjoyed the National Anthem before the gun went off. That was a good moment. That's what I would tell his wife if I could.

Scott
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I saw a guy backstroking ahead of me... was he wearing gloves? likely just a bunch of video of sky...

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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like you had a strong swim

It certainly didn't feel like it. I had my Garmin in my swim cap, and swam for Fort Mason most of the swim. I started it after swimming for a few minutes:


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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Lou3000] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, my heart felt condolensces go out to the family of the man who passed away. Death is always a tragic event, but I think the family could take some comfort in knowing that at least he passed doing something he loved.

At least, thats what Ive told my family if anything were to ever happen to me while racing.


Im glad you expanded on whole experience, because that video posted of the year prior, while choppy isnt that bad at all and is not uncommon conditions for swims here in Australia BUT, we dont get the very cold water, nor do we have to jump off a boat and I think that distinction is huge.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
klehner wrote:
Bmanners wrote:
I don't think jumping off a boat is the safest way for mass swim starts. Even if they are in smaller waves


I'll let you know my impressions after June 2.


Way back in 07 I think it was I saw my first video for the start of the Sharkfest, jumping off the boat, and my first thought was "I have to do that!" I've since done 2 more swims or swim/runs, and still think it's one of the most amazing starts in racing. Safest? Maybe not, as you are jumping into some pretty cold water. It's definitely a shock. And yes, couple years ago at the challenge as I was bobbing back up the girl behind me jumped, and landed on my kidney. That one hurt.

But there is no way to provide a warmup. Swimming in aquatic park (if that's where it is ending) is useless since you've got the whole walk to the pier/boat ride out time. I think it's up to racers to prepare themselves properly for the conditions, including practice swims, regular checkups, heart evals, etc.

Wildflower and Oceanside also allow very little warmup in cold water, but at least it is some, and there's probably ways to expand that. here, there is no way to get around the first jump, other than having the start 5 minutes after the jump (then you're waiting and drifting in cold water). I fear the Alcatraz races may be at risk with the (not unreasonable) push for warmups.

I have not done this race, but would it not be possible to have athletes jump off the boat, then swim 100m to a buoy line / gate where the start happens 5 minutes later? That way there is 5 minutes of easy swimming and no "stampede" out of the gate. Or better yet, make 2 athletes jump off the boat every 2 second....that allows you to send off 3600 athletes in an hour. At least this way you have a long line of athletes (TT start) rather than a mass "jump off". You would need to put a timing wire on the boat, but the technology is there as it just works off a battery pack and GSM network communication to central timing station. I helped sportstats with a few timing stations last year. It could easily be done and everyone gets their time accurate without the crazy stampede.

Dev
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think they can have a bouy out there. The sharkfest swim had us jump and then swim to a line of kayaks. The invitational screwed up the start so it was jump and go, all on the same start time. The Alcatraz challenge had a timing strip, so it was jump and swim. Could do the jump and lineup as a compromise, I guess, but getting everyone lined up correctly and started at once could be difficult, but they do it at IMAZ etc
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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If it was unclear, I meant starting 2 athletes every 2 seconds in sequence (you could send them off by race number grouped by age groups). This was you can send off 1800 athletes in an hour. Don't know how many boats they use get everyone to the start location currently, but I don't think it would need to be any different, you'd just be sending off 2 swimmers at a time and that way no one feels pressure of a big mob of swimmers around them and can ease into their pace after the initial shock. Even in a wave start you can't really "ease in" if you happen to be in the front or middle of your wave because you will be "trampled" and that can lead to another layer of crazy panic.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
Condolences to the friends and family.

Are you aware of any efforts (by USAT or others) to do molecular autopsies on these athletes who pass? I have to think that LQTS1 has already been considered as a culprit but I have not kept up on the status of the investigation into these swim related deaths. I have certainly considered genetic testing for myself if I am going to continue in this sport.

A genetic test cannot determine if you are susceptible to triathlon swim death.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tri@thlete] [ In reply to ]
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tri@thlete wrote:

As triathlon and IM's become like the new "marathon," more and more novices will just sign up w/out the proper education or training. I didn't even think about an IM until 5 years of consistent triathlon training and always tell people that the swim is the shortest part, but the most stressful, thus just tell newbies getting beat up during the swim to consider stopping mid swim just to look for open space which could be 2 meters to your right/left. Calm down and don't think you'll swim 1:30/100's during a race if you've been training at 1:45's. You'll just hyper ventilate and panic which doesn't bode well w/ 100's of people smashing you.

My previous thread on staggered starts: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

you are incorrect on this. It has been a common trend with these swim deaths that the victim is always an experienced triathlete. We always find out later " "Bob" was always in the top of his age group "
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [cyclops] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.facebook.com/...ts/10151766979810410


"We'd been administering chest compressions in the boat for about 3 minutes by this time and I noticed that his ears were bleeding from the inside and the foam now flowed constantly from his nose and mouth."


Why is this guy bleeding from his ears? This would indicate tympanostomy tubes, eardrum rupture and/or skull fracture. Did he get hit by a boat? Do eardrums normally rupture during CPR?
Last edited by: RZ: Mar 4, 13 20:00
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [RZ] [ In reply to ]
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Foaming may indicate pulmonary edema or drowning.
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Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the foaming. But why is he bleeding from his ears? It doesn't get through the eustachian tubes to the outside unless the eardrums are perforated. Can this happen when someone is bagged during CPR, or did this guy have eardrum tubes... or head trauma?
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