This is a multi-level question and I think most of the points have been hit.


However, I think there is one point that was not. That would be the facilities needed to house a full on training program and organization from individuals across clubs.


USAT has their USA Triathlon’s Certified Training and Performance Centers:


Philadelphia is supposedly the 5th largest city, by population, in the country and I cannot think of a place that would have all of these amenities to qualify/meet the standards needed. I am really trying to think about what would be required to start an economically viable business that gives you access to all that you need to essentially house a team in one location and make is successful.


What does a youth triathlon program do? what does a high school team do? what does a collegiate team do? what does an adult club do?


For as big as triathlon seems to be in the Philly/South Jersey/Delaware region you would think clubs could come together to make something happen. But I don't know...the money is with the age groupers and perhaps college students who can use their student loan money to pay for some of this...as well as universities and perhaps hospitals associated with those universities.


Here is how I see most things breaking down.


Youth Programs:

• Youth swim club
• USA Road Runners or school team
• Bike when you can

High School:

• High School Swim Team
• High School Track & Cross Country
• Bike when you can

Collegiate:

• Tri-Clubs really start to pull in athletes from the above that are not good enough at any one sport to compete in college.
• Organized club swim
• Track workouts with the club
• Group rides start to happen on roads

Adult Club:

• Individual coaching in any discipline
• Masters swimming
• Bike Trainer and Weekend Rides
• Run training when you can
• Club OWS, Bricks, & Track work

But how do you get the community to come together to be able to make this economically viable to function as one club, one family. Do you found a Drexel, Temple, U Penn, La Salle co-op? Do you have those teams mentor the youth and high school athletes and the high school athletes mentor the youth? Where do the age groupers fit in?


There is power in organization...but in such an individual sports, where the money is with the people that seem to have the least amount of time, how?

I can't say if this will work or won't work but here goes my background.

I've always been perceived as a "specialist" coach within my area in that I've always coached DL athlete primarily (be that juniors + collegiate level or older edr/developing pros) + some age groupers. Over the past few months, I've started to lead a 2 day a week masters program and like all 90% of them are adult age group triathletes. Then within about 2 weeks of that program, groups came to me and said, "can you coach us as a group like you do the masters swim programs"........I said let me figure out what I can do and what I can't do and a mix/match price point that works for both, that allows for group dynamics + semi customizable training. So I did that, and now I have a group that meets 4 times DURING the week + weekend workout when applicable for them. I actually have 3 groups of athletes that I train weekly..

-junior group that we meet 6 days a week (Sundays ALWAYS off)..between 3 to 6 meet each practice for this.
-elite development/collegiate/under 30 year olds that we meet roughly 6 sessions a week; between 2 to 6 come to each of these sessions.
-AG "group" training that meets min of 4 times a week, usually 5 times a max; usually group of 4 with max of 8.
-Track Tuesday I allow a "drop in" fee that is open to public. Any "drop in" practice is $10 for non AO athlete and $15 if I have to pay a facility fee.....track is free so it's $10. if I have a swim practice that I pay for it's $15.


I've actually seen my business grown in this avenue. I'll also say that within those group sessions, very rarely are they all doing the same workout. I usually know what each athlete needs to do, and give them specific goals/sets for their individual needs. Use the "group" setting to allow each to push each other and motivate, while working their individual needs.

Now if your top age group guy who wants to train alone and sit on your watts for 3 hours, etc etc., sure you may not like the group training. BryanD on ST, when he comes to the weekly sessions, a lot of times I'll give him his training orders and he'll just ride off the front when he needs to. If we are just getting in a "pedal" session where we can all converse through 70 miles, then he rides in the group. But when he needs to hammer, he hammers. He likes to "pirate" train in that he sometimes likes to just do his own thing. And I get that, and I allow that. But what I've found now is that the "group" meet ups atleast allow for a safety check and a "this is the route today so I can atleast know where you are". That's been a good safety measure imo.

Check out Endorphin Fitness in Richmond, VA. They've grown from a coaching group to a full fledge business that they have their own shop/training studio with adult/age groupers/ developing athletes/juniors all as part of their business model. I think it's great, not my cup of tea in that the size is massive and I want a much smaller model that I can manage and/or with 1 or 2 people......I certainly don't want the expense of a building when Raleigh, NC has the resources I've found/use with riding and places I can use indoors in winter if weather gets mucky.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Interesting.

It sounds, and I don't want to put words in your mouth so correct me if I'm wrong, as if you are using something that is close to a club model, at least in structure of training sessions. Not sure how funds flow to you, which is the other part of the equation, but it sounds like athletes join a coaching group (rather than a club) but the actual practice is somewhere in between an individually contracted coach and a traditional club structure. Do I have that right?

Do you think there is a trend towards that model? Or are you an oddball and likely to stay an oddball?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

So two things..yes you basically have it right. When you join my coaching (Brooks Doughtie), you are coached as an "all out multipart" (club) athlete. You can't be a club member without paying for coaching unless your basically a sponsor. So essentially if you pay for individual coaching, you become an AO team member, and whichever program you pay for, you get access to certain practices.

My juniors pay 2 ways- monthly pay rate and they get access to all practices or "punch pass" system where you pay for 10 practices and use them as needed (really good for athletes in year round swim programs or run programs who come once a week to work on say bike skills, etc).....And for DL development I'm big big big on telling families to stay in year round swimming. I'm not stupid, if you can swim already, then stay in swim club. If you can't swim and don't do it, then yes I can teach you and you come to our practices.

My AG "group rate" athletes get a semi custom plan where they can come to pre determined practices and that's about it + training plan.

My AG individual athletes get access to same practices + custom plan for their individual needs.

My EDR/DL/under 30 athletes all are on custom plans (these are mostly athletes looking to develop into front of pack athletes, some DL some 70.3, some just there to have fun and push themselves and don't care about , that we meet and train as a "squad". Some days it's 2 of them, some days it's 8 of them. I've been having the EDR squad now for about 6 months and they all love it.


I think group training context is the next generation of revenue generating imo with how triathlon is "declining".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

As a former PGA Teaching Professional, ...........it depends.

Some are affiliated with clubs and only offer lessons to club members. Some are affiliated with clubs and have authority to teach whoever they want. Some are tied to teaching facilities and do what they want.

I know (from country club experience) tennis is similar.

I've seen a few coaching groups in the Denver/Boulder area that mostly cater towards FOPs and elites. Unfortunately what I see with these groups is that MOPs who decide to join the group usually get smoked by mid season with injuries -- the coaches of these groups are typically focused on the higher performers. And it's understandable, there is just no way to do a longer group ride and have everyone stay together (or everyone meet their individual goals) if the group is so varied. At some point the training needs to be individualized.

From a business model, I've created beginners only coaching groups that targets sprints. Even that is hard to keep folks together for rides and runs, but because we're not going far we can get away with have a diverse set of individuals.

I'd love to hear from Brooks on how he manages to do long rides and runs with his athletes and if they do things as a group or individually.

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USA Triathlon Level 2 Coach
Slowtwitch Master Coach
Head Coach, TriCoach Colorado, LLC

Since you are a former golf pro, how do you feel about the often used analogy of swimming being a good bit like golf and tennis in being a skill that one has to learn, albeit a skill with a much higher endurance quotient than golf. Do you agree??? Do you think it is easier to teach kids how to play golf??? As I would imagine you know, *most* triathletes who did not grow up swimming say that it is much harder to learn to swim well as an adult, which then justifies the swim leg being much shorter than the B and R. Curious as to your views on these topics often discussed on this forum.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

So as far as long rides and runs. I do zero with my "age group" athletes. Mainly because I find it just as you stated, far too much diversity in their abilities. Now on the weekend, I coach my EDR/70.3 team every Saturday and Sunday. So what I do is likely what you've seen in the groups that have a more front pack focus.

-we always have cue sheets and or verbal route before the ride.
-half the time I actually ride in my car behind them on the ride to keep them safer (we ride with radios in those instances so we can communicate). And yes I do a very good job of knowing when we are "blocking" traffic, and when we aren't. If cars come up and I can't wave them around, I simply speed ahead and pull off into shoulder/side road/driveway.
-if we are doing an interval ride, it always breaks up and traditional I just bounce between athletes to see how they are doing.
-if it's a "base" 3 hour ride, we always stay together. Maybe the slowest gets dropped, but that's when I go with that person, and the squad stays together.

Group runs with my EDR team: It's not really ever a "group" workout in that they are doing it together (staying together atleast). What it really is a "coached" workout. I will also note, that we never run on trails that aren't measured and or pre-marked. We never just go run on some single track trail, everything is always atleast known measurements even if an easy long run. That is the simplest way for me and the athletes to know pace and their current effort for said pace. If we do a single track run, that will be a set where I just sit at the car and wait for them, and they go run the workout and come back, and we go home. But if I'm "coaching" a run workout, it's always on an measured course, that way I can bounce around, carry 2-3 watches and know exactly where every athlete is and the paces they are running. My edr team is at most 6 athletes. Because of race season, what I generally find is x athlete is at race, Y is in taper, so A-D have a similar workout, Y is doing taper workout and we are all watching X's race splits online every now and then and virtual cheering them on.


I'm fortunate in that I'm very selective who I work with, I've "let go" of athletes if I don't think it works for what I'm looking to build and create. And I've also pushed athletes to xyz coach cus it'll likely be better fit, etc. (and people have sent me athletes....so it's good in that sense).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So you actually have "let go" athletes who did not fit with your program; there was thread on here a year or 2 ago entitled "Fired by my coach" but most STers thought the guy was just trolling. Interesting...

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The club model predominates in Europe for most endurance sports whereas in the U.S. it tends to be more individual athlete focused.

Pulling back to 30,000 feet, the club method in Europe most often yields superior results at the higher performance end of Age-Group racing across all endurance sports!

There are clubs in the U.S., but they tend to be more social focused - nothing wrong with that. In fact, I often find that is one of the biggest surprises, when newcomers come into running, cycling or triathlon. They had NO IDEA that it was so social. They envisioned many lonely miles of training, and are very pleasently surprised by how social it all is!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I should also say I'm most fortunate in that I'm a cheap single 35 year guy. I don't have an expensive lifestyle, I don't have 2 kids to feed, and a wife badgering me about monthly bills. I have me and my dog. I quit a $70k ish year job to coach and went "full time" with 1 athlete (it's been a big big struggle, but every year the pay gets better, the athlete pool gets deeper, and the bank account number stabilizes). I had a large self made bankroll that was my "cushion" in life. I have no clue how I would have made it if I had a family that depends on my income, nor do I think I would have ever put my family into that stressful of a situation.

So I have been able to make it work in ways that I don't think everyone can.

And finally this is my career. This isn't something I do to pay for my IM race travel or expensive hobby, or coach 2 athletes "on the side". This is what I dedicate too every day. So for many many coaches, I think they have obstacles that I don't have to deal with. So everything really is all in what you want in life.

I do think group dynamics is a good revenue generating process. I think it can really hit the newbies as a "start" and then if they want even more enhanced training, they have the coach to set them up with that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And herein lies my problem...I'm working towards going to full time coaching, but those pesky wives and kids, and the need for shelter and food...

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USA Triathlon Level 2 Coach
Slowtwitch Master Coach
Head Coach, TriCoach Colorado, LLC

Making a living at a job is so much easier if you don't have to make a living at it ;-)

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

What's the running joke? Want to be an elite international level coach, the prerequisite is 1 divorce.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Swimming (proper technique) is much tougher than golf. I played maybe 2-3 rounds before college (where I played baseball....lol). After college, I went from an 8 hcp to a +3 in about 3 yrs. I was still WOEFULLY less skilled than many, many others in my chosen field (at that time). You can absolutely learn golf as an adult. Adult men are the hardest people to teach golf. Kids.....women.....great. Adult men (think they) know everything. They're probably the hardest people to teach to swim, properly, also.

Yes in 9 years I've let go I think 9 athletes because either I didn't think I was making a good impact anymore, they were making bad lifestyle decisions that was affecting my group of athletes, or the big one- commitment. And in the same light, I've had athletes "fire" me too. So it's all part of the process.

eta: and by commitment I mean they pay me to coach them to X goal/race and then only do 60% of the workouts. That's no dice for me. I'll gladly move on from you and not take your money if you can't find the time to dedicate to yourself (this is a long term process however, this isn't just a month's worth of missed classes..it's a pattern). Because at the end of the day, that athlete's result is on me. That's on me, so I'm going to do everything in my power to have the best result possible. And again, I don't have a "family" to feed, so I make decisions that other coaches would say is crazy- not taking money from athletes. But that's just my own take and decision. If your life/family/work is causing you to not have the time or energy to workout then this doesn't work. And in those cases most of the time, the athlete understands, although once....they went full nuclear on me in a context similar to ST. Athlete took it to FB group (I think she titled it, my coach just fired me now I'm pissed) and just railed on me (I never responded or saw the group itself, friends of mine told me). The funny thing about it was she was mad not that I wasn't a great coach or she loved the workouts, but that I was keeping her accountable, and suggested she just wasn't ready to do what she thought she was capable of doing because she missed so many workouts.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Interesting, thanks for your insights. Perhaps learning to swim with good form is harder than I thought, but then I swam my first 25 yd length at around age 5. It is one of my earliest real memories, the pool looked SO long. That said, I've known lots of guys who learned to swim well as adults and went on to swim in Masters meets. My sense is that perhaps 10-15% of the total population have the "swimmer genes" such that they catch on fairly easily. The 10-15% figure is not original to me though but rather originated from "FLAJill", a fairly frequent ST poster on swimming.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Very interesting, thanks for all the details. I can def see how you would not want to try to coach a person who only does 3/5 of the prescribed workouts. *Most* people can find the time to train if they really want to, emphasis on the WANT part. They gotta have "the HUNGER and the DRIVE". :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I've not fired an athlete for not wearing my logo'd trucker hat.......yet.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

FWIW - swimming in the US is basically 100% club based and has very high participation numbers. USA Swimming had 3011 registered clubs and over 336,000 athlete members in 2016 (and another 18,900 coach members). There are high school and college programs and they attract, particularity college, the top talent but all that talent was identified and developed at the club level and almost all college swimmers continue to train and race with a club while swimming in college

And, in what amateur sport has the US been most successful in on the international stage over the past 50 years? Swimming.

Then how can you call yourself a real coach?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I had the exact same experience where maybe one or two coaches that the clubs hires and you use one of these coaches for 15-30 minutes a few times a week and pay for your individual time. Also fuck you to the person who said figure skating wasn't a sport, I'd love to see you try, also it's not called ice skating.

For golf, generally the lessons are offered through a golf club where the professional on site will offer lessons. My dad also has his own golf school in the winter but these are group lessons offered in a special gym so not individual coaching. I was trying to think of another hobby type sport that does private individual coaching where you can choose your own coach and I really can't think of one.

Hahahaha this is genuinely great.

I think Fleck was mostly talking about adult running, cycling and triathlon clubs when he made that comment, not swimming per se. You are of course completely correct about swimming being essentially all club-based.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."