Yes

Thanks Dave, I'll sleep better knowing this.

Scott

They do, but they tend to be a bit of a mess. The issues that make the dynamic very different from ITU are:

Course crowding (lots of different AGs), lots of different speeds.

Wave starts

Vastly different swim abilities


Good swimmers (or weak bikers from a previous wave) tend to be the big beneficiaries. The strong swimmers can team up to hold off the bikers, or draft once caught (thus limiting their losses).

Slow riders from an earlier wave can sometimes latch on to a stronger biker from an earlier wave and get a good tow.

Ironically, the best organized AG packs I've seen were not in draft legal races :(.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Nailed it! I just don't see draft legal racing as being great of a thing in a large mixed AG field because of the reasons above. I look at Nationals and I'm passing all sorts of people that are of all sexes and AGs, same for Worlds. I'm not sure who I'd latch onto to draft in that sort of race.

Now do an AG specific race and I'd find this sort of draft legal racing interesting. The time logistics for that are a killer though... even if you limited the field on an Elite basis... i.e. race goes off every hour, competitors be able to complete the course under 1:10-1:15.

At the draft legal qualifier in Florida last November the bike was four 5K loops with waves starting 15 minutes apart. I think there were 4 waves of men, the ladies started an hour (I think) after the last men's wave.

We rode through the transition area on every lap, when it was time to transition to the run you stayed on the outside (to the right) and dismounted at the line, ran to your bike rack to get your shoes. The run was one 5K loop around the outside of the bike course so the bike/run didn't interfere with each other and a lap-out rule wasn't necessary.

That format worked really well.

jaretj

Yes there are AG DL races, but the issue is still lack of participants which causes unfairness drafting rules. But for now it's more showcase setup and just trying to get people familiar w the concept of drafting on bike. when/ if participant numbers are there to have full numbers in each wave then they'll have it setup like normal DL events. It's also why they can't have lap out rules because everyone is on different laps out on the course at different times.

USAT AG DL course last year is perfect example. Due to "wave" starts you had multiple waves on bike course all at same time. Pure luck if you came into transition and coming through was a draft pack that you could latch on to, and maybe the better faster swimmer didn't have they luxury.. Of course they did that because of lack of entries per group and it was first year event, there was bound to be issues.

This year ITU qualfier will be in New Orleans for USAT. But my guess is if they continue w 5k bike loops there will always be draft packs with different riders on different laps just because of the course. It likely won't be lap out again.


At ITU worlds lap out will be in affect so I'm assuming course will be only your wave on course at one time. I believe they have a 6 hour window set aside for the DL races and I think it's on Thursday of race week.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yes AG ITU Draft legal is Cozumel on Thu 15th Sept.
We've had a few draft legal AG races in Oz.
Worked pretty well, closed roads and at least 5k circuit with 15 mins between waves and relatively limited fields (50 or so per AG).

To be fairer I would suggest a rule change that you can only draft same AG, otherwise you can get a great tow behind a fast AG to catch up to the leaders of your (slower) AG...
or put a long time between waves to allow the bike course to clear... or have a 20k loop... or all of the above :)

Using a different AG draft to get up to your AG leaders isn't really in the spirit of your race...

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Rob Raulings
My AeroCalc - http://aerocalc.triathlete.com.au/aerotools/ - Blog http://fishboy.triathlete.com.au

Yes that type of rule would fix the wave issues, I just don't know how you actually implement that on a 5k looped course. You put 2 waves of 50 people on a 5k course; 100 people I just don't think you can race it any other way then go have it as free for all.

Now you do 1 single 20k loop, sure, but if it's that small a loop, ~8 min loop, you just are kinda stuck with it mixing bike groups.

Eta: of course 1 bike loop sorta defeats the whole reason you want to do DL. Small loops makes it more spectator friendly.


Eta #2- oh at the ITU qualifier in florida in 2015, I think it had 5 total waves of athletes w/ 73 females and 144 males (finishing places atleast), no serious bike wrecks that day. I know people think it's all this carnage out there but there usually isn't.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How do you find out where the draft legal races are? Would be fun to try one out.

I looks like there is a sprint in November in New Orleans. I may be checking this out. I like the shorter stuff anyway!

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

We've got one here in Ottawa next month. I believe it's the first time the sprint distance AG Worlds qualifier will be run as a draft-legal format in Canada. Initially the rule stated you could only draft your own AG, now you can draft anyone of the same gender... which makes it much more straightforward, given all the different waves on course and people of varied swimming abilities. The bike course is a single lap, which I think will help. I'm concerned it might get a little crazy with fast packs catching up to and passing stragglers from the previous wave -- as there's only a single lane width of road to do so -- but I guess we'll see. It didn't stop me from entering. ;)

https://www.teamusa.org/...ents-and-information

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I really wanted to go to that one but it's just too far away from me.

What's the time gap between waves?

Last year in Clermont the swim start and swim exit were the same space. I started doing some time calculations of where I would be in comparison to next wave. When I made it back to shore before the next wave (~15 mins in between), I gave a funny dance to the next wave of athletes and spectators which got a good laugh.

it was a ton of fun. Hot as hell even early November. But it was a lot of fun. I think w DL racing the people even wanting to try it have a much better handle of their biking skills and atleast their awareness. So it's a shame that people will assume there are these idiot bikers doing these events. Those people are so far removed from understanding the actual ability of most athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

 They haven't indicated yet on the website what the gap will be between waves. This is new territory for me... I participated in a drafting clinic to brush up on my group bike handling skills, and I've been mostly riding my road bike this year in preparation. I don't have much opportunity for group riding normally, but it least it's something. If past qualifiers are any indication, it should be a fast field. It's a longshot, but I would love to qualify for worlds.

Thanks for the link. I see we have a draft legal sprint in New Orleans on 11/5.

I'd enjoy a draft legal race, but can't justify cross country travel for an hour of racing. Is this really the only draft legal race in the USA for 2016? Is there another option?

Scott

Where do you live?

Rev3 had AG DL race in back to back years at a nascar track in Richmond in 2014-2015. Couldn't get over 130 people to sign up.

I'm sure there are some local events that likely have weird draft rules but yeah it's pretty much a 1 shot deal in US.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ITU Cozumel AG draft legal bike course is a single loop out and back.

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___________________________________________
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WTS Edmonton always has an AG race. Suspect it will be Draft Legal in 2017. Dates are TBD but probably Aug 5-6, which probably means no wetsuits either since that "lake" is small.

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___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

 
Essentially means no one will get lapped out, huge incentive for AGers.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So looks like none in California? Bummer.

UC San Diego has been hosting a race weekend, Tritonman, with both draft-legal and conventional events for several years now, so I expect that will continue. They've capped the draft-legal to a single wave each for men and women. I recall them enforcing a lapped-out rule (3 lap ride, 2 lap run?). That will probably be in mid to late February.

I think Stanford's tri team has also done something similar, you might check for that as well.

It depends on the total athlete count... if it gets too high there is not much you can do, but with some separation time and good numbering eg A1-999, B1-999, C1-999 where waves are A, B C it should be pretty easy to see who is doing the wrong thing, even if draft busters can't get there, packs do "self regulate" to an extent.

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Rob Raulings
My AeroCalc - http://aerocalc.triathlete.com.au/aerotools/ - Blog http://fishboy.triathlete.com.au

Hmmmm... http://bfy.tw/6Rgt

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