I don't care if it is done or not as long as it does not replace non-drafting age group races... If it does replace it then I am done with multi-sport and am going back to running exclusively...



Joel

It would be nice if the advent of draft-legal AG races draws away the draft packs from the races we've been doing.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

I say

Swim run bike will fix everything

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http://RoadID.com/...te/4HC4V-TAFQ9XPJDTX

Get over it.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

or under it...

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http://RoadID.com/...te/4HC4V-TAFQ9XPJDTX

in my opinion the problem with all you guys, on both sides of the argument, is that you're all too formulaic. none of you have any sense of wonder or adventure. none of you can think past your own sense of what you imagine triathlon is or always was or should be. the pro draft legal people are wondering how we're going to handle all the laps. as if somehow draft legal and laps are congenital twins.

the no-draft people seem to think that triathlon must be swim, bike, run, in that order, no-draft, and usually of specific prescribed distances that cannot be varied. well, you allow that they don't have to be those distances, you just personally won't enter a race that violates your precise sense of distance and proportion.

furthermore, it's really not a legitimate race unless it's ironman or until some other group of intrepid early adopters prove the race's popularity. then maybe you'll consider doing it.

of everyone appearing in the slowtwitch "pages" so far this year, including every pro triathlete, every AGer, every RD or other personality, olympic or ironman, the person who comes closest to the sort of person who helped build this sport in the early 80s, the person whose accomplishment i admire most, is this guy. i don't know him. i've never met him. but he is my brother from another mother. he is multisport.

there ought to be some kind of vision quest that all of you are required to go on, at some point in your life, and only after that are you entitled to be in the "club." your vision quest requires you to conceive of, plan, and execute an arduous multisport event alone, except for a minimal support crew if that thing you want to do is just not possible without some kind of sag or equipment drop.

then you won't rag on anybody else's idea of multisport. you're realize that it's all multisport, it's all good, and the minute you decide what "proper" multisport is and what it must contain you've lost the spirit that built the sport you now enjoy.

multisport: the conception and execution of a route, usually of a relatively long distance, that artfully uses various means of human powered locomotion to get from point A to B. that's it. those are the boundaries. any attempt to apply or enforce any other limit to multisport, whether by the olympic adherents ("olympism" can blow me) or by the ironman or otherwise no-draft adherents, violates the spirit of this great activity many of us have endeavored to build.

the one founding pro who i am absolutely certain will agree with me is scott molina. the one guy on this forum who i am certain will agree with me is dev paul.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I understand dial up AOL was fairly new in 1995, but it shouldn't have taken this long for your post to show up here.
Also, the Macarena has died down in popularity, in case you weren't aware of that.

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IG: idking90

It would be nice but I kind of doubt it because most of the people who I have seen drafting seem to be the people who love their tri-bikes (usually very expensive) and will not want to give those up for a road bike...



Joel

I for one don't want to limit anything and I have no problem with adding draft legal age group racing but I just want to make sure that non-Drafting age group racing does not go the way of the dinosaur and die out because of the advent of draft legal...



Joel

Nicely put, Dan. As a species, we've lost our sense of adventure. Oh, and if an idea is not immediately profitable, it completely sucks. We're complacent and afraid of getting outside of our comfort zone.

Nowadays, if somebody tells you to "think outside the box", they really mean "please think inside my box."

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

the pro draft legal people are wondering how we're going to handle all the laps. as if somehow draft legal and laps are congenital twins.

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Dan, in your talks, the big discovery seemed to be that this was being pushed for more exposure to the Olympic Games format (ITU was really pushing the draft legal format). So, with that said, I dont see any way in hell they do any ITU AG event that is attached to an elite field as well, as not being multi-loop. Now your local RD may very well likely want/need/push for it to be 1 lap and I have no doubt they'll be able to do it in that format. And hey I'm in favor of your 1 lap AG rule in that instance. In fact I've said that is the easiest/safest/fairest method for AG'ers. But I dont see it happening at ITU World's, USAT Nats, any "big" event. I also dont think there will be any rules that it has to be multi-looped. I think your idea of you doing one out in the country is a great idea.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I would like to see both available. That way the people who want to do draft can and those who don't want to don't have to. No reason to limit things, but I agree with those who say it would be a shame if non draft went the way of the Dodo bird

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"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul"

+1.

Also, after watching all those crashes in the Tour peloton, I'm not interested in pack riding. I don't do triathlon for the danger aspects, but for the fitness benefits (plus general enjoyment).

If others want to do draft-legal racing, of course, that's their business.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

I don't want to race "smart" by waiting around to sit in on the bike biding my time and dosing my effort waiting for a run race to happen. If I wanted to do a run race, I'll sign up for a local 5K. I like the individuality the current system non-DL has. For most of us, this sport is our "release" from our 40 hour work week and other responsibilities of life. I just want to go out and race hard on the weekend and not worry about some fuzzy tactics/sheer luck to do well at a race.

No, the no-draft people think that the bike leg should not be draft legal. I've done s/b/r, s/b (the No Run All Fun Biathlon), r/s/r (the Avon Run-Swim-Run), r/s (the Ocean Grove Biathlon), s/r (Splash and Dash), r/b/r, r/b/s (the Vice Versa Triathlon), s/b/r/s/b/r (the Double Trouble Triathlon), and of course r, b, and s races. Enjoyed them all.

Don't be calling me formulaic.

I made it through many years of crits and road races with all my skin intact, and I have no desire to do another race where bikers of dubious skills are anywhere near me. I don't even train with them. A friend of mine who raced Kona one year can't even do a turnaround in a TT without putting a foot down. The only place that drafting should occur are bike races, until such time as there is some way to qualify athletes as to their bike handling skills.

As a reasonably FOP swimmer who would likely do well by making one of the front packs, I still wouldn't do it. Not because I don't think it isn't multisport (does anyone really think that?).

No thanks. That doesn't mean it isn't right for some folks.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

My concern is not laps. How does one construct a multi wave race where the top swimmers do not get mixed into the wave ahead of them and then pull poor swimmers/riders up into a higher position than where they should have been?

My other concern is the death of individuality of racing. It makes 100% more sense for my friend and I to work together at races where I hold up for him on the swim, pull him on the bike and then let him unleash his 14:30 5K. I want to be an individual as I retired from USCF racing as I want the flexibility in MY schedule.

I used to race Cat 2 almost 15 years ago. Now that I have young children, I have no time to find a group ride to keep my pack handling skills up. I don't want to be around other people with less experience, and honestly, I am also sure I'm one of those people you don't want in a pack either. Who knows how dubious my skills have atrophied to over the years. I can keep a predictable straight line now, and that's about it.

Well Said.

Ok-ok I started this post as a bit of shit stirring, but there are some very valid points listed here and in the many other posts before.

I am Mr Adventure and could not care less if its non-standard distances or funny formats. I am fairly new to the sport but have been doing some sort of each of the disciplines all my life...I understand the tradition and I get the new school ideas that makes it a bit more exciting for the spectators along with the potential revenue that can be generated on adds and broadcasting licensing.

Riding in circles...no problems put a lap counting strip on either end keep left _pass right whatever...simple we get that all the time...its a stupid reason and I wont discuss this further.

But here is my beef:
1. Safety
I am what I would call a very good bike handler but when I got on my tri bike the first time it was a whole new ball game. Now put a rider with poor handling skills on a tri bike and you know what will happen. It doesn't even have to be a tri bike, it could be a rented beach bike and carnage can be seen at every event that I attend. Now if we start drafting we all know what will happen. Yes we can break them into classes and ranks and what have you but the fact of the matter is you will have people racing with questionable skills that will not be able to safely handle themselves not to mention a group or draft situation.
A recent race made very conscience about bike skills and safety.
http://singaporeseen.stomp.com.sg/singaporeseen/this-urban-jungle/nsf-dies-from-head-injuries-after-crash-at-ocbc-cycle-singapore
This event saw many accidents from idiots that should not be on bikes but they have the gear and paid the fee so who will stop them?


2. In a small place such as Singapore they may jump on the bandwagon with only a few Tri specific races each year and that will be the end of the Traditional format which bring me to number 3


3. In my mind Tri should be about individual effort and not luck or teamwork. It should be something that can be repeated without adding more variables


That's all for tonight.

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http://RoadID.com/...te/4HC4V-TAFQ9XPJDTX

I would think that draft-legal would force RDs to have more mass SWIM starts. There are some very competive, aggressive 45-49 yo racers who will bitch to high heaven about not making it to the front peloton.

So, higher risk in the bike, for sure, and probably higher risk in the mass start. I would expect insurance rates to rise at minimum.

And then there's the "team" aspect. Teams would spring up overnight, with the good and bad that follows. I can imagine some of the complaints that would arise if some MOP racer is actively blocked from passing by groups using team tactics. And lets not even talk about "other" team driven issues....

Addendum: I don't mind different formats, and different kinds of courses. But any step that removes the focus on individual efforts is, to me, a loss for triathlon.

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Punching cockroaches from day 1.

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http://www.tri-junkie.com/

Great summary, and I sure agree with you. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

dan I don't disagree and sadly don't express my thoughts in writing terribly well sorry about that. but as we say in dog world 'it's all fun and games until someone ends up in a cone'. riffing off the info about races in mexico from the other thread and your thoughts here, all the fun appears to be ruined when big money or ambulance chasing lawyers enter the fray. if we assume personal responsibility by all participants then every idea posed for dl is workable. what works in most other countries and nfs simply will not in usa, seems to me that is a large part of the struggle, no?

I'm bringing my "A" game to a draft legal in Detroit 4 weeks from now. You guys are probably going to get a big "Holy crxp that was fun" from me.

jaretj

Good luck, I'm still not sure if i'm going up to it or not. One athlete pulled out so may enjoy some vacation time after nats.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I don't get the "sky is falling mentality" about AG DL.

Amateur cycling does it all the time with no tests or anything to verify draft competence, and mixes age groups consistently. It's just not a problem.

I think this could be very good for triathlon, anecdotally I know many who have transitioned out of triathlon because the interest stagnates when the event is identical every time, aside from the course. Having DL adds an interactive element that makes each race more variable and interesting, IMO.

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Run PR's: 18:05 - 36:58 - 1:22:59 - 3:07