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Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice.

david

Dec 23, 02 4:47

Post #1 of 24 (3055 views)

Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice.	Quote \| Reply

OK Group,

I like many others love top run on trails. Virtually very trail I run on has a sign with a rule requiring dogs to be on leashes. These are local, State, and Nat'l parks. Yet almost every time I run on trails I have an encounter with a dog not being on a leash.

Now, I like dogs, but strange dogs strike me with a bit of fear. One time I got nipped by a dog while running "who had never bothered anyone before," and there was one time when my wife got attacked by a dog we didn't even see because we were engaged in our conversation and watching for rocks, etc. Again, the owner just couldn't figure it out. What I can't figure out is why dog owners won't use a leash in public areas.

I have a good health respect for unleashed dogs, and my wife is down right scared. It appears to me that most dog owners are oblivious to the fact that other might be afraid and don't want Fido jumping up on them. To me it is analogous to smokers not understanding that we don't want to breath their smoke (not really trying to start a war here). In fact, although I hate it, I'd rather have smoke blown in my face than to have a strange dog jump up on me while running. Further, the dog owners seem to get indignant when asked to keep their dog away from me.

So, what are the recommendations? Are my concerns valid, or doesn't this bother anyone else? Any tricks to keep the dogs off? I have been tempted to get some pepper spray or something like that - really ought to be for the owner, not the dog.

Seriously, this has gotten to the point where it is a real problem for me and I am interested in reasonable solutions. Thanks,
David
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Prairieboy

Dec 23, 02 5:28

Post #2 of 24 (3031 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I am right there with you. I love dogs... and have owned large dogs. I have always trained my dogs to be people friendly... not growling guard dogs. The owner can control the dogs behavior.

Never get between the dog and it's owner. Never approach a dog if you are afraid - they can sense it.

When riding or running on rural roads... those dogs typically have an owner that yelll at them. I have found a stong 'NO... GO HOME' is VERY effective. They are used to hearing that.

I agree with you that more dog owners need to take responsibility for there dogs and the comfort of other people. Dog owners always tell you that they won't bite... but nearly all dogs will in the wrong circumstances. I have great concern for the integrity of politicians, yet nearly every one that I know are great people...

Bob

Dec 23, 02 6:28

Post #3 of 24 (3015 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

[quote]I have been tempted to get some pepper spray or something like that[/quote]

I carry pepper spray both on my bike and on runs. I have a small tube with a velcro strap that will hold it to my hand or to my handlebars.

I haven't need to use it -- almost all the time I have been successful with a strong, assertive, "NO, GO HOME!"

But I wouldn't hesitate for a microsecond to use it if I had the least bit of concern that I was about to be bitten. I am also a dog person, been around them all my life, and love big dogs (We have always had German Shepards.) But dog-loving aside, human safety always ranks ahead of dog comfort. Pepper spray isn't lethal.

--

~~Bob

Robert Preston

Dec 23, 02 6:36

Post #4 of 24 (3009 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I've heard of several tricks that work when it comes to keeping dogs at bay, although I don't think I've ever heard of these being used when owners are present. Where I live, yard dogs rule, and we're always getting chased, especially on our bikes. Some folks I know have carried a small water gun filled with ammonia in their jersey pockets. If a dog comes at them, they aim for the eyes. Irritates the crap out of the dogs, hurts bad, but doesn't do any permanent damage (at least that's what they say). Others use mace or pepper spray. But I would think that would a bit dangerous -- shooting mace at a dog while riding a bike! When I'm chased, either on foot or two wheels, I simply shoot a stream of water at the offending canine from a water bottle. They aren't expecting such an "attack" and they go in the other direction quickly. At the very least, it distracts them and allows you to put some distance between you and the dog. The mace may come in handy for the owner, however.

RP

cerveloguy

Dec 23, 02 6:38

Post #5 of 24 (3006 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dogs are a fact of life that you'll have to get to learn to live with. My wife was bitten by a dog while running about six months ago but 99.99% of dogs that may bark or chase a runner or cyclist will not bite. We live in a rural area and run/cycle pass many farm dogs, all running free on their property. All these dogs are doing is a natural instinct to protect their turf when they bark at strangers. Incidently the dog that bit my wife was not a local running free type country dog but was a German Shephard that was from the city and kept cooped up in an apartment.

We've made friends with most of the local dogs. There was one dog on our running route that was a bit intimidating but we learned his name and brought along biscuits. Now he doesn't bother us any more. Some of the dogs actually love to see us. A couple of dogs run along their property line everytime we ride by, happy to see us.

I'm one of the owners that runs on trails with my dog. He's a friendly black Lab who never bothers anybody. Still, I bring my leash just in case we run into someone with a dog phobia or an unfriendly dog. Never a problem yet.

Don't even think about pepper spray. Spray someone's dog and you might have to use it to protect yourself against a very irate owner. Could lead to some serious legal implications.

david

Dec 23, 02 6:58

Post #6 of 24 (2994 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [cerveloguy] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>I'm one of the owners that runs on trails with my dog. >He's a friendly black Lab who never bothers anybody. >Still, I bring my leash just in case we run into someone >with a dog phobia or an unfriendly dog. Never a problem >yet.

Great! Then help me understand. The paradox in this logic is that it is always the ones "who never bothers anybody" that ends up biting (aren't on leashes), because the ones that do bother people are on leashes (usually). Also, when they jump on me I don't know that they never bother anybody, but the owner thinks somehow I should know this. Further, The ones that never bother anyone are the ones that bite and the owner says "geez, that never happened before."

>Don't even think about pepper spray. Spray someone's >dog and you might have to use it to protect yourself >against a very irate owner. Could lead to some serious >legal implications.

Again, help me understand. I haver never had pepper spray but am considering it. A big dog that I have never seen before comes to jump up on me. I am scared. I give him a little pepper shot. What is wrong w/ that? The owner is the one who isn't following the law (where leashes reguired). I am the one at fault for protecting myself? And, what right does the owner have to be irate?

Not trying to be smart, just trying to figure out how to best handle a very imposing solution.

david

....

Dec 23, 02 6:59

Post #7 of 24 (2994 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [cerveloguy] (Deleted by Francois) [In reply to]

cerveloguy

Dec 23, 02 7:21

Post #8 of 24 (2985 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Don't forget that I live up here in the rural Great White North. To begin with it's illegal in Ontario to carry pepper spray. Where I run it's not uncommon to see black bears every now and then. They're certainly on the trails but generally avoid contact with humans. I bring my dog along for added protection. The bears, wolves, fishers, etc. hear the jangling of his collar bell and stay away. Trust me, up here dogs are the least of my worries.

david

Dec 23, 02 7:31

Post #9 of 24 (2979 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [Francois] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

>I was chased for about 2mi by 2 coyotes! Now that was scary,

OK, I won't complain about dogs anymore!

redlab

Dec 23, 02 7:53

Post #10 of 24 (2959 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

dog owners who do not obey the rules really have no rights when it comes to their uncontrolled dogs. i've been an avid dog-lover/owner and runner for over eight years and i too have encountered less-than-friendly dogs with oblivious and ignorant owners. in fact, my dog(s) often receive(s) the grunt of the punishment in the "off-leash" situations as david describes. even though my dog has been taught to heel upon the encounter of other runners, many other dog owners think everyone is a dog lover.

it's this ignorance that is really turning people, towns, and cities against dogs. it really must be assumed that NOBODY loves dogs. if this is kept in mind in any circumstance where a dog is in public, then we'll see more "off-leash" areas as owners become more responsible. until then, i think the advice given here (except maybe the ammonia) is good.

if you can diplomatically mention your fear of dogs to the dog-owners or mention that you've had a horrible experience (even though you shouldn't HAVE to), i'm sure the majority will actually respond in kind. this tactic should work better than throwing the leash-laws in their face, which could be seen as instigating. again, just offering solutions based on some relatively ignorant dog-owners out there.

disclosure: i currently run with my two-year old yellow lab

C2KRider

Dec 23, 02 7:54

Post #11 of 24 (2959 views)

Freindly dogs who bite [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

<<Great! Then help me understand. The paradox in this logic is that it is always the ones "who never bothers anybody" that ends up biting (aren't on leashes), because the ones that do bother people are on leashes (usually). >>

I am also wary of strange dogs, and always talk to them the second I see them, even if they are many yards off. If you are running, slow to a walk and talk. This alerts to them that you are there, and talking in a nice voice makes them less anxious about you. I haven't had any trouble with dogs when I take this apprach. Also, don't run by a dog when approaching from the rear before making your presence known and allowing for some time for it to acknowledge you. Don't look the dog directly in the eye at first. Instead talk to the owner; the owner is the "leader of the pack" and dealing the the owner will make the dog more comfortable.

When we go hiking with our dogs we rarely meet anyone, so one of our dogs is not usually on a leash (the other two would run off to Canada if let off the leash, so they always get leashed), unless we meet other people. The one dog, a Lab, is super freindly and sweet, but we know there are circumstances in which she will growl, or snap at a stranger. This is simply a dog thing - they are protecting their pack against an abrupt, maybe startling, encounter with a "stranger.". It is perfectly normal behaviour for even the friendliest dog, but one which must be anticipated by the owner (The reason so many "friendly" dogs end up growling at, or even biting people, is that the owner gets complacent at their friendly behaviour, and so lets down their guard). This dog of ours never strays more than a few yards from us so she is very easy to control. Other dogs I have had, that were just as freindly, were kept on a leash in any public place simply because they liked to run much further away from us, and distance makes control iffy. Actually, though, the farther the dog is from the owner, the less likely they are to show "defensive" behaviour.

Some of it, too, is simply experience with strangers. If a dog is constantly exposed to strangers, it will learn to ignore them. Police dogs, for instance, are trained to ignore anyone except the handler. If you watch a well-trained dog, they will rarely take their eyes off their owner/handler. I have also met dogs on trails that were trained to lie down and stay in place when a stranger is encountered. That requires a super-diligent owner, however, and so is very rare.

"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack

Fleck

Dec 23, 02 9:07

Post #12 of 24 (2931 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

This topic always seem to stir people up a bit. I think that what it really comes down to is common-sense on the part of both dog owners and non-dog-owner active types who encounter dogs while out doing what they are doing.

I have been on both side of the divide. For years I ran with my dog off leash - in proper situations where the impact and disturbance on others would be minimal if at all. At all other times he would run with me on the leash. He was well trained: for the most part he heeled while running. Did not jump up and did not bark or bite at other dogs or people.

I have also encountered all manner of misbehaving dogs while running/riding on my own. Sometimes the dog is doing what is natural for them( defending territory) at other times the misbehaviour is slearly from a lack of training and this responsibility falls back on the owner.

I also see a certain percentage of Dog owners doing things that a completely iresponsible and down-right stupid(which really puts a bad-rap on the rest of the good-dog owners) Such as taking the dog to the beach on crowed day and letting the dog run free. Not picking up after the dog, and so on.

For the non-dog-owner-active-types who do encounter dogs - dogs are very tuned into body language. Little things in the way you carry yourself or look can have a big impact. Often one of the best defense mechanisms is to completely ignore the dog. Do not in anyway make eye contact and pretend that they are not there. A good percentage of dogs will inturn completely ignore you. For other dogs, as some other posters have pointed out - a good loud "NO" shout can often do the trick and turn them away.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog | EventsOnline | Bibnumbers.com

Chappy

Dec 23, 02 9:31

Post #13 of 24 (2920 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [Fleck] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Coyotee Drills, now there is something new, which bring greater fitness, PC's, CT, or Coyotees :).

Tom Demerly

Dec 23, 02 9:45

Post #14 of 24 (2912 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Not a big dog lover, although I do like them. I have two beautiful cats. Things to keep in mind: Any dog can be dangerous, especially when it feels threatened- but then again you already knew that. Being assertive and holding your ground (as opposed to running in the opposite direction) but moving quickly through the area has worked for me. Unfortunately, it may not always work. Thankfully, that dog mauling case from San Francisco and others have established a precedent that dog owners must take responsibility for their pets. So, if you have a dog and are outside in proximity to people, other dogs, animals- no matter how much like "Lassie" your sweet little dog is, it should be on a leash for everyone's safety. Good Luck, Happy Holidays. P.S. Once was chased by a dog while I was on a bike nad it could run almost 28 M.P.H.!

Tom Demerly
Editor, TriSports University
http://university.trisports.com/

GT

Dec 23, 02 11:57

Post #15 of 24 (2861 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I have found that spraying dogs, hitting or kicking them, threatening them, and the like usually just make pissed off dogs. The more of this type of treatment they get, the more they are going to chase people/bikes and one day bite them. I also disourage people I ride with from treating them harshly.

I just talk to them like they are puppies. I use a high pitched voice, call them puppy, and say stupid things to them. That usually stops them in their tracks. It is very amusing to see a running barking dog stop a turn its head sideays.

If a dog is coming at you barking and jumping, it is just trying to scare you. If it comes low and silent it is coming to hurt you. The later is rarely seen, but is the one to be worried about.

My biggest fear is a dog getting into a bike pack taking somebody down by just getting int he way.

If you are jogging and somebody is on a trail system owned by the government, you can certainly remind them that the dog is supposed to be on a leash. You can also call the park offices or rangers and report the incident. It always pisses me off when I am walking my dogs and I have to deal with somebody's dog that is running loose.

Remember there are very few bad dogs, but lots of stupid owners.
---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

Vita-man

Dec 23, 02 13:50

Post #16 of 24 (2816 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Here's my $.02.

If I am running, I slow down and either ignore, or talk to the dog in a friendly voice. I also keep moving past them as I do this. If the dog is on his (or her) own property, I go to the other side of the street if it is possible.

As for the bike, what has been said is sort of true. But instead of saying "no, bad dog" I screeeeem at the top of my lungs "NOOOOOO BAAADDDDD DOOGGGGG!!!!!!!!". This almost always startles them enough to make them stop. Then I jack my speed up to anerobic and ride as fast as I can.

I haven't tried the water bottle or pepper spray on the bike. I'd be afraid I would fall and then I would have a mad dog waiting to eat me.

Jeff

baldguy

Dec 23, 02 14:29

Post #17 of 24 (2803 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Now, I'm no dog-behavior expert, but I can offer my proverbial $.02. Everything I've read or heard says you should stop when you encounter a loose dog. If you keep running, they think you're either playing or escaping and will continue to bark, chase and nip. If you stop, bend over and talk to them, as others have said, in a stern voice, they will stop. Maybe I'm naive (or stupid), but I always assume dogs want to play and aren't going to harm me. Of course, I haven't encountered the silent, ears-pinned-back type yet, but stopping has always worked for me.

Dave in WI
-----------------------------------------------------
"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

Bernster

Dec 23, 02 16:34

Post #18 of 24 (2783 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

For years I trained dogs in obedience, attack and conformation. There is a trueism that there are no mean dogs, only mean owners. OK, there are genetic misfits but they are far and few between.

There have already been some good suggestions regarding stopping a dog that's chasing you and I'll have another thats been time tested. Keep in mind, a dog is a preditor. Anything running away is considered prey or in the case of my Labs someone else to play with. You can stop a dog cold by stopping, facing it and giving it a sharp NO, BAD Dog! This will work 99.9% of the time. Another method I use is to turn, face the dog and run after it shouting at it. This totally freaks them out and they will turn tail and run away from you since they now think they are the prey. If the dog is really courageous (or just plain mean) and returns to chase you again stoop down as if your going to pick something up to throw at it or indeed pick up a stick or a branch and again chase the dog. You get the picture and so will the dog. I've had the chasing routine work with Dobermans, Shepards and Rottweillers. It has always worked.

Please avoid the Pepper spray. Remeber it's the stupid owner that needs to be "trained" and injuring a dog for doing what comes naturally to it is to me unfair.

TonyG

Dec 23, 02 18:15

Post #19 of 24 (2767 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

A lot of good advice posted. Pepper spray may not be lethal but it is torture if you use it without absolute necessity.

Bad coyote story: Riding downhill at around 55 km/h, lots of highway traffic to my left, a high concrete barrier to my right, when I see the coyote - who is trapped between a barrelling me and the barrier. The coyote is scared and you can bet so am I. The coyote crouched and snarled, making to leap at me when my instincts took over. I stood on my pedals and started yelling like a Tourette's case. The coyote backed off and let me by, and damn good thing too.

Bad doggies story: My long run this past Sunday saw not one, not two, not three, but FOUR dogs come at me. "NO, STOP IT!" worked every time. One thing I've noticed is that dogs tend to come at me more when I am running with a Walkman then if I'm not - anyone else notice this?

One piece of advice: When you are on a suburban road or a well-used path where leashes should be used, don't hesitate to slow down and, from a safe distance, politely yell to the owner "PLEASE LEASH YOUR DOG."

TonyG

What is Enoch Root?

Allan

Dec 23, 02 21:16

Post #20 of 24 (2748 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

As a runner for 25 years I've encountered many barking pains in the ass. As most people have stated, the owners are the real problem. Even the friendly dogs that run up to you for a pat on the head are a pain because you have to break stride or run into them.... the owners should have a clue that not everyone is thrilled to see and pet their dogs but they don't!

I've had many confrontations and have found that yelling "Go Home" as loud as I can and advancing towards the dog (look threatening and let them know who the big dog is!) usually sends them home or back to the owner.

A few people have posted remarks about pepper spray and having to deal with the owners. If a dog seems threatening, I figure you just do what you need to to avoid getting bitten and to hell with the meathead owner. I had one situation where a German Shepherd blocked my way on a sidewalk and when I tried to get it to back down it went nuts barking and snarling ... the owner was on his front porch and told me to back off because the dog had every bit as much right to the sidewalk as I did ..... I told him to get his dog out of my way before I had to kill it and he called his dog over pretty quickly (this shows that bluffing the stupid owners can work as well as bluffing the dog by yelling at it!).

Paul in AD

Dec 24, 02 1:02

Post #21 of 24 (2737 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [TonyG] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In response to TonyG.

I've had the same problem with walkmans when running thru cowfields. No idea why. Perhaps like dogs they have more sensitive hearing!?

puskas

Dec 24, 02 14:25

Post #22 of 24 (2684 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Please don't use pepper spray on the dogs...That's fine fore irresponsible owners though.

I have two Old English Sheepdogs. They have a herding instinct (even I can't run with my oldest dog as she continually shoulders me to maintain control).

Here's the paradox (might be the wrong word since I've just finished running and I'm a bit light-headed)...Everyone claims that the are "entitled" to enjoy open-spaces/parks...Well, I enjoy watching my dogs run free once in a while. It brings happiness to my house because they are worn out. It makes me smile because I see the joy in my dogs eyes. However, my freedoms cannot infringe upon others...That's where a little patience on BOTH sides is valuable...I'd like to keep my dogs off-leash as much as possible. However, I must be ready to immediately respond/take action if my dogs run toward someone who doesn't want to "play." On the non-dog runners side...Is it really THAT much of a distraction to take 30 seconds to slow down while I leash my dog in your presence? Really, if we EACH show an understanding for the other, it will be easier for all of us. I'd also recommend that people stop breeding if they are truly concerned with having enough space;-)

BTW Tom...Cats murder everything in sight...Why doesn't anyone ever tell cat owners to keep their animals locked up. Seriously, we've got birds and small rodents being killed left and right by "fluffy," but nobody ever says that cats should be kept locked up indoors...
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cerveloguy

Dec 24, 02 15:00

Post #23 of 24 (2681 views)

Cats [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Cats are doing terrible damage to native wildlife species, especially in some areas such as Australia where wild domestic cats are a serious problem. I'm a dog lover and not much of a cat person but my wife is, so as a compromise we have both a dog and a cat(who get along wonderfully). We don't let the cat out much but she does have a small bell on her collar that makes enough noise to arouse any birds, squirrels, etc. of her presense. I don't know why more cat owners don't do the same.

BTW, dogs make great running companions. Can't say the same about cats.

Dennis 55

Dec 29, 02 18:41

Post #24 of 24 (2563 views)

Re: Dogs, Afraid, No leash, Advice. [david] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dogs and no leash! They clip your heel and down you go, they run in front of you and you trip, They s_it all over the trail, they bite, they should be on a leash!!!!!! Any one who puts a person in danger so their dog can play is a uncaring selfcentered person . Hell I say spray the[reply] owner and the dumb as_ dog. People would not put up with kids doing what dogs do for a min.