An old quote from John Cobb ~"Nearly every disc is the same". You could probably split hairs on discs... a certain disc might be faster with just a bike and frame, while another is faster with a rider. You ask about comfortable, if that is a driving force I would look at a spoked wheel. The Super9 was a very fast disc in a Trek Speed Concept. I road one for a few years but my alignment is not exact and the cage rubs the wheels in the largest sprocket. For that reason I have a HED now. It is fairly light, trust the aerodynamics, is a wide rim, tubeless, comfortable, AMAZING brake track with the BLACK treatment which you don't even need on a rear wheel as it is too good if you don't also pair with a BLACK front, and handles well.

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It would make sense to have testing with a rider on the bike, but then again, you would run into "that rider isn't the same as all the riders" or the different bikes that would be out there. Like I said, so many variables. Every time I seen "Zipp" is the best, you have to think in what manner? Hard core data comparison without a special interest testing group would be nice to see for all tri products really. Like a Consumer Reports only on a beefed up testing protocol that isn't influenced by the dollars waved in front of them for swaying results one way or another.

The real problem I see is that it is just really hard to get really good data with a rider on board, which is why wheels are tested often by themselves or just with a bike. If we have to spend so much to tease out the differences then from a practicable standpoint it is almost like splitting hairs and just not worth it. I have seen enough individual data from people in the tunnel to never be surprised by anything. One wheel could test faster for someone and with the next rider it could be the opposite. And all of that could be different on race day at race weight with skinnier calves and quads for that matter.

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Having a Blackwell disc ( ie: Zipp 900). And, also I have a Zipp SUB-9 (yes, the Sub-9) disc, I will say that the Sub-9 is faster. It's nearly (within 80 grams) the same weight as the Zipp 900 disc, but the Sub-9 has always tested faster/fastest disc ever made based on shape. I know that a Falcon disc exists, and some will say....oh, but it's a true lenticular disc and crazy light weight. Yes, it (disc alone is crazy light) but add in the hub adapter, and it's back up to a Sub-9's weight. Okay, maybe...maybe the true lenticular of the Falcon is faster than a Sub-9 in the tunnel, I will concede that. But, that's a very slight difference. And, then there is the HED disc (let's just call it a wheel cover.....yes, that's what it is). Yet, the HED disc mimics that shape of the Sub-9 from Zipp. So, point proven. Now, some may argue.... well the Sub-9 only came in tubular... Yes, that's true. Yes, that's lighter and faster.

The DASH and Lightweight discs are super-light, ie: 820-850gr., BUT they are totally flat. I still believe that the Sub-9 has the ultimate aero shape, and at 980gr. is still super light weight.

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Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

If all disc wheels are the same then is the least expensive one the best option?

As long as you can shift to every cog I guess.

I have heard time and time again that the Super9 is the fastest disc Zipp has ever produced. I have actually heard to from a few people in the know that they actually really liked the Sub9 as well for a variety of reasons but they have never gotten the shape and design to be faster than the Super9 so the Super9 stands. Maybe Rappstar will chime in. The lightweight disc is pretty narrow and probably makes for a pretty poor trailing edge with wider tires.

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You should eliminate the Mavic disc based solely on price.

Sub 9 is faster. Hed Jet is faster still.

Beyond the rider, we need to address the question of tires. The head-to-head tests tend to use the same tires on different discs. A Lightweight disk for example will do horribly with a 23C Conti tire, where a Zipp Super 9 will do very well. Stick a 20C tire on the Lightweight and you may get a very different result.

What we need to do is test each disk with its best possible tire match.

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Sub9 is faster than a Super9??? Then why do all the Zipp reps keep telling me otherwise. I continually ask why know Sub9 upgrade to a CC. I know you use tubies still but for the average Ironman triathlete tubies are just too much work in this day of age.

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This. Almost AUS $4000 for a wheel is just fucking insane, especially when there is no data to demonstrate it's any quicker than a $700 Renn disc.

Any good spoked wheel plus a wheel cover.

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The greatest impact on comfort is going to almost surely be dependent on tire volume more than construction/design of the wheel. Your winner from this standpoint will probably be the wider rims. Next most important factor will be whether the wheel construction allows for some vertical compliance. I solid disc isn't vert compressible whereas a spoked wheel (HED) has some vertical compliance and the tensioned carbon fiber discs as well (Lightweight and probably Dash. Campy's supper high end disc from the 90s was tensioned, but I know nothing about the new one except that it is really expensive).

The other benefit of a spoked wheel or tensioned wheel is supior lateral stiffness. Flat solid discs tend to have more brake rub problems and don't corner quiet as well.

I wouldn't buy a non-tubeless wheel these days. Latex tubes can be a bit finicky and I have seem some people successfully ride seriously compromised tubeless tire with sealant.

So while the HED is not the lightest or sexiest disc, good luck finding a better all around disc.

I'd love to see the data.

Even if they were faster (in a wind tunnel) I reckon the difference would be negligible maybe 30s for a 70.3 course.

If I had made a product that was noticeably faster than a rival companies product, I'd make sure the whole world new about it. Why would a company keep quiet about it? Perhaps they have too much money?

I'd love to see my Renn 555 with an optimal fitting tyre in the tunnel up against the most expensive Zipp or Mavic or whatever, again with an optimal fitting tyre. I suspect that the difference would be tiny in a frame that fairs the back wheel (like my P3C), and probably not very much in any other frame, even one of these strange bikes without seat tubes.

Similarly, I would like to put my Hed Jet 9 C2 up against that silly Zipp 858 NSW, both with sensible tyre choices, at sensible real-world yaw angles.

I bet the difference is way less than shrugging vs not shrugging in aero tuck.

Thomas, could it be because they no longer make the Sub9?? :)

I thought Rappstar said a long time ago that the Sub-9 was discontinued because of the difficulty involved in manufacturing them. But regardless, I doubt any Zipp rep is gonna tell you "Yeah, that wheel we don't sell anymore is faster than the one we do sell......"....

I'd say either the HED Jet Black disc (the brake track hype is real) or the Lightweight Autobahn. You won't find much of an aero difference amongst different discs but there are other tradeoffs: weight and brake track performance. The "vertical compliance" aspect is a red herring IMO. There's very, very, very little vertical deflection in a properly built spoked wheel. It would be a tiny percentage of the combined deflection of your tires and saddle cushioning.

You'll notice I sold my Super9.




Well they don't, exactly. Here's what they actually say:




So it's really only "as fast" as the Sub 9. Then you need to start asking, "with what tire and yaw angle?". The wind tunnel data from Wheelbuilder is a good starting point:

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aerodisc-data.html



This is not new news: a lenticular disk with a bump is faster than a flat disk with a bump, which is faster than a regular flat disk.


So why doesn't Zipp make the Sub 9? You can search the archives here and eventually you'll find some references to the difficulty of manufacturing the Sub 9. So my conspiracy theory is that the margins on a flat disk are much higher than a difficult-to-build bump disk. This is probably also why Zipp doesn't make a lenticular disk.

You'll note that Hed, which is not limited by the constraints of solid carbon construction, has chosen to make a lenticular bump disk.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Agreed regarding "wheel comfort".
In 6 years of cycling I have yet to hear anyone give a credible reason why wheel construction has anything to do with comfort. Wheels may exhibit noticeable lateral flex, but if the vertical flex is sufficient to noticeably impact comfort, I think there's something wrong with your wheel! Vertical compliance hierarchy in most road and tri bikes (i.e. not including those with actual suspension):

1. Tyres [large and highly pressure dependent for a given type and size]
2. Seatpost/saddle rear & bartape/bars/stem front [usually small but some seatposts in particular are significant, e.g. Canyon VCLS 2.0]
3. Frame/fork [usually minimal but some reportedly significant such as Trek Domane]
4. Wheels [Negligible unless they're broken]

Might be the Drag2Zero disc, but you can't use your granny gear with it. Obviously I'm going to shill for the AeroCoach Aeox, but the Stinger and Jet+ are fantastic as well. Zipp haven't made a fast wheel in a long time, but the fact they can be used on track as well as road is awesome. I don't think there's enough difference in performance of most discs to warrant paying silly money for one (and I've had 2 Autobahns...).

Maybe we will see some head to head testing when Enve releases their disc in the next few months. Hopefully it comes out by the end of the year or early next year.

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Are you predicting that Enve will release test data??

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Is there some good documentation or reference materials that discuss the differences between flat, lenticular, and "bump" discs? I'm interested in learning more. Also, where do the Flo discs fit in this discussion? The price point is going to be hard to beat for a brand new wheel, especially if the performance is only marginally different.

I have more interested in Specialized's disc at this point.

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Don't see why as it will be like a everything else they offer (fastest in their tunnel but not so much elsewhere).