Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences

Aug 16, 17 11:00

Post #1 of 18 (6033 views)

I recently moved from a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine to a direct drive KICKR 2. I love the smart trainer and the effectiveness of Erg mode. However, my bike has horizontal dropouts, so the direct drive feature is also a righteous PITA for me. I am thinking about changing to a wheel-on smart trainer like the Magnus or Snap.

I am curious about others’ opinions and experiences between direct drive and wheel-on trainers. I know that direct drive is considered superior for a variety of factors like no wheel & tire wear, higher wattage & incline, lower noise, better power accuracy, and maybe road feel. But I really had no complaints with my old dumb Road Machine trainer in most of those areas. For me, tire wear was a non-issue. The RM seemed great for road feel as well. And, I use TrainerRoad's power match, so accuracy is less of an issue between smart trainers for me.

Since I do most of my training inside, I kind of like the idea that I could actually use the full drive train and derailleurs during training, so when I take it on the road, it is in a constant state of testing. And of course, I would never have to remove and reinstall the rear wheel on a wheel-on trainer.

I have read most of the reviews more than once (including DCR’s multiple times). I am curious about other first-hand experience others who have gone between both. What would be the biggest things I might give up, miss, or overlook if I went from a smart KICKR 2 to a smart Cycleops Magnus or smart Wahoo Snap? (I know there are other wheel-on smart trainers, but those two are my favorites.)

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 15:25

Post #2 of 18 (5938 views)

What is your issue with the horizontal dropouts? I have a Lemond Revolution and my CD0.1 has horizontal dropouts. There's no way I'd go back to a "wheel on trainer." I've never tried a "smart" trainer though. Are there any differences in the setup?

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [BoKnowsT1D] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 15:42

Post #3 of 18 (5923 views)

BoKnowsT1D wrote:

What is your issue with the horizontal dropouts? I have a Lemond Revolution and my CD0.1 has horizontal dropouts. There's no way I'd go back to a "wheel on trainer." I've never tried a "smart" trainer though. Are there any differences in the setup?

My thoughts as well. After years of hearing people complain about horizontal dropouts being a PITA I ended up with a Cervelo P3 and am amazed at how much easier it is to install a wheel or put it on my Tacx Neo. It's absolutely dead easy to do with proper technique.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 15:53

Post #4 of 18 (5907 views)

sciguy wrote:

BoKnowsT1D wrote:

What is your issue with the horizontal dropouts? I have a Lemond Revolution and my CD0.1 has horizontal dropouts. There's no way I'd go back to a "wheel on trainer." I've never tried a "smart" trainer though. Are there any differences in the setup?

My thoughts as well. After years of hearing people complain about horizontal dropouts being a PITA I ended up with a Cervelo P3 and am amazed at how much easier it is to install a wheel or put it on my Tacx Neo. It's absolutely dead easy to do with proper technique.

Hugh

Also my thoughts.

Your first paragraph sounds exactly like me. I was on a KK Rock n Roll with the oversized flywheel added. It felt great. I bought a Kickr2 2 weeks ago and wouldnt go back. I'm on a P3 that I've had to take on and off a few times due to currently working through a fitting and it's zero issue. Can't imagine switching to a known inferior product due to the dropouts.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 16:35

Post #5 of 18 (5875 views)

Horizontal dropouts are easier to change wheels with than vertical dropouts! You just have to pull the chain loop backwards (it pulls the derailleur back as well) before sticking the QR through the chain loop, and it'll mount like cake. Seriously, it's wayyy easier for me than mounting my vertical dropout bike which occasionally doesn't seat correctly and then the shifting gets wacky.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 16:44

Post #6 of 18 (5862 views)

I have a turbomuin and I'll never go back to wheel on.

Looking forward to the tacx or kickr smart trainers in the future.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 17:16

Post #7 of 18 (5821 views)

So, now I am totally perplexed. If anyone has a great video of horizontal dropout technique, please post it. I have changed a rear wheel with vertical dropouts a zillion times, and I find it about as easy as changing a front wheel. I do not need to touch the chain or RD, I simply position the wheel, and it snaps into the vertical rear wheel dropouts. I could almost do it by sense of smell. Horizontal, OTOH, has not been easy for me. I need to jockey, wiggle, pull the chain, tug the RD, wait until the moon aligns with Venus, and magically the wheel may finally align. There is no universe where a horizontal rear dropout is as easy as my three bikes with vertical rear dropouts.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 17:43

Post #8 of 18 (5801 views)

Bear in mind that direct drive is a misleading term conveniently adopted. Almost all of the direct mount trainers use a belt to drive the flywheel instead of the rear wheel. They're not direct drive. They still need calibration because efficiency depends on belt tension and temperature - which change as you warm up. In principle calibration problems should be less than rear-wheel drive but that was certainly not the case with the original kickr I used. The computrainer was much more repeatable in my experience. Reports are that the kickr2 is improved.

Direct mount is more convenient, and takes up less space, but there are many studios that regret moving away from computrainers.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Aug 16, 17 17:50

Post #9 of 18 (5788 views)

exxxviii wrote:

I am curious about other first-hand experience others who have gone between both. What would be the biggest things I might give up, miss, or overlook if I went from a smart KICKR 2 to a smart Cycleops Magnus or smart Wahoo Snap? (I know there are other wheel-on smart trainers, but those two are my favorites.)

+1 for the technique as above for horizontal dropouts. I have an old rag handy for the Shiv TT rig so I don't get dirty grabbing the chain. It's easy to pop in and out of a direct drive.

To answer your query regarding Magnus vs SNAP. The SNAP has a bigger flywheel and much better inertia/feel when you're cranking along. There are a few factors in play here, however using the same bike I preferred the SNAP.

Power accuracy wise with wheel-on trainers. You need to do the legwork every ride to get them reporting good numbers. eg Correct tyre pressure, roller tension, a 10 minute warm up, spindown, then you're good to go. If you've got a power meter on your bike, use that. The wheel-on trainer becomes just a 'smart resistance' unit and use your bike power meter for the data.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

timeforacompact

Aug 18, 17 14:29

Post #10 of 18 (5600 views)

just want to mention another option. a spin bike. i did a lot of indoor riding and finally got tired of putting the bike on and taking it off. i got a used spin bike from a gym for about the cost of a trainer. it doesn't have power meter, that would cost a lot more. i've really enjoyed it. very heavy and stable, always ready, low (almost no) maintenance, great adjustability. i'll even jump on for a 10-20 minute warm up prior to morning run.
anyway, just a thought

______________________________________
"Competetive sport begins where healthy sport ends"

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Sep 7, 18 19:07

Post #11 of 18 (4132 views)

exxxviii wrote:

So, now I am totally perplexed. If anyone has a great video of horizontal dropout technique, please post it. I have changed a rear wheel with vertical dropouts a zillion times, and I find it about as easy as changing a front wheel. I do not need to touch the chain or RD, I simply position the wheel, and it snaps into the vertical rear wheel dropouts. I could almost do it by sense of smell. Horizontal, OTOH, has not been easy for me. I need to jockey, wiggle, pull the chain, tug the RD, wait until the moon aligns with Venus, and magically the wheel may finally align. There is no universe where a horizontal rear dropout is as easy as my three bikes with vertical rear dropouts.

Bumping this old thread. I just got a Canyon Speedmax SLX with horizontal dropouts, and it’s damn near impossible to mount on my Tacx Neo. And putting the wheel cam on is a greasy nightmare and game of chicken with the Di2 wires in the way.

Can someone please direct me to this link of proper technique. I’m covered in grease in my pain cave and damn near ready to ship the bike back to Canyon and say to hell with finicky superbikes.....

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 7, 18 22:05

Post #12 of 18 (4058 views)

Not sure if this is the 'right' technique but it's the technique that I use to get my P4 onto my Tacx Neo and it works well enough for me. Remove the skewer entirely from the Neo. Mount the bike (it goes on very easily when there's no skewer in the way). Reinstall skewer. No problems at all.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [el gato] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 3:09

Post #13 of 18 (3981 views)

I will add, prior to removing skewer, put read d to the far right (always get confused if people think this is the highest or lowest gear) and small chain ring at the front so have lots of slack on the chain. Remove skewer, change wheel, bingo.
Excellent practice should a flat occur when racing.

el gato wrote:

Not sure if this is the 'right' technique but it's the technique that I use to get my P4 onto my Tacx Neo and it works well enough for me. Remove the skewer entirely from the Neo. Mount the bike (it goes on very easily when there's no skewer in the way). Reinstall skewer. No problems at all.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [el gato] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 3:55

Post #14 of 18 (3947 views)

I use a KICKR Snap with great success, doing approx 5,000 miles per year (where an hour's TR workout is about 18 miles).

I find it very easy and convenient to use - i simply pump up the rear tyre to 100 PSI, wind in the knob and then run a quick calibration test. I've traditionally run a normal tyre on a spare (not deep rim carbon) wheel with its own cassette and never had any wear problems but recently one began to squeak so badly that i ended a workout and jumped straight on the internet to buy a trainer tyre and it's been much better.
The power correlates pretty well with my vector 3's so no problems there either.

All in all i couldn't fault this and i'd buy another in a heartbeat.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [RCCo] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 3:59

Post #15 of 18 (3938 views)

In case anyone was still wondering...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00rcRd_2p9Q

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 6:46

Post #16 of 18 (3866 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

In case anyone was still wondering...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00rcRd_2p9Q

I prefer this method instead:

You don't get your hands dirty this way. I do this on my trainer and when putting my wheel back on for races (have an Elite Direto). I take of my skewer off though as it make it so you don't have to push the derailleur in so far. Now I'm not sure if you can use this technique on Di2 derailleurs since it won't move manually like a mechanical does (probably etap too). It takes me longer to get the skewer back on than putting the bike on/off of my trainer.

Last edited by: loxx0050: Sep 8, 18 6:47

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [pbnz] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 8:03

Post #17 of 18 (3830 views)

pbnz wrote:

I will add, prior to removing skewer, put read d to the far right (always get confused if people think this is the highest or lowest gear) and small chain ring at the front so have lots of slack on the chain. Remove skewer, change wheel, bingo.
Excellent practice should a flat occur when racing.

el gato wrote:

Not sure if this is the 'right' technique but it's the technique that I use to get my P4 onto my Tacx Neo and it works well enough for me. Remove the skewer entirely from the Neo. Mount the bike (it goes on very easily when there's no skewer in the way). Reinstall skewer. No problems at all.

Ah yes. I forgot to add the part about putting it in the smallest (largest? furthest right?) gear (and largest chainring so it's not cross-chained). Incidentally, I always forget this step in real-life too, and then I'm trying to shift gears with the skewer already removed and cursing about how I can't believe I forgot that again.

Re: Direct Drive vs. Wheel-on Trainer Experiences [loxx0050] [ In reply to ]

Sep 8, 18 10:03

Post #18 of 18 (3775 views)

I'll give it a try this weekend, see if I can do it with my Ultegra di2 rd

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