If I recall correctly from your posts you are a guy who recently missed worlds by a couple minutes, due in part to a bit of a slow bike split....

and you are still going on about how you can add 50-150grams of aero drag to your bike, to get better braking?

I can understand wanting great brakes. Get some of these, and/or use wheels with a metal rim, and quit trying to think yourself into a slower bike split.

http://www.magura.com/...-tt-2/allgemein.html

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Brakes just slow you down...

Exactly. This quote:

...juxtaposed with his expressed desire to have a TT bike with disc brakes JUST to be different is a true equipment choice oxymoron (with a pretty heavy emphasis on the last 2 syllables of that word).

It seems to me that if the original quote is true, then Dave should be embracing the collective objective wisdom available here on ST about how to go faster on the bike for the same effort...rather than trying figure out ways to configure a bike with the expressed purpose of being "non-ST approved" (whatever that means :-/ )

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Well if we are all idiots, then he has the right idea.

Most of us have helped people punch above their fitness in TTs though.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I missed getting on the podium by less than 2 minutes.

As I said, brainstorming is free. Good engineers look at all pro and cons of many different options.

One I am looking at is a P3 which folks have given great inputs.

Another was the culprit but it does not fit.

What was neat about the culprit is one could use either disc or standard brakes on the same frame. So, if I could get a TT frame like this, I could race and have fun during the season with disc brakes, which might help me be safer in all the hill races. Then if I do get into worlds Chicago, which I will not know until May or June, then I could take the disc stuff off and put on a magura brake setup for that UCI spec race.

I love to play with stuff. Not sure why some are throwing out such emotion. Lots of thing motivate me to train and race. One is to have fun. Another is a very stable bike which is why I have been racing on the Yaqui DE round tube
frame for like ten years. It works and was 5 to 10K worth a minute in a race?

So again, before I spend the money, I just want to consider all different kind of ideas.

One build is a P3 setup with yep the magura brakes with buttons. Just got the quote of 150 bucks to put the buttons on the brakes. So this is going forward.

But until I do this, I still want to just see if one could get a frame that as I said, lets me race with disc brakes, and if I do a world event, put the magura brakes and wheels on.

I really do thank you for all you inputs on the pro and cons of my crazy ideas!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

True...but my feeling is you're giving him more credit than is warranted in that case.

I guess I/we should all considers Dave's ramblings in the same way RChung recommends considering the ramblings of Dave's good friend Mr. Day...as the output of a "performance artist", that is.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

If you cloned me from 10 years ago and dropped me in here I wouldn't trust me either, haha

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

You already can on virtually ANY frame...a rim IS a disc.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Tom, if I were to get back into worlds then first, I could not race with disc's since they would be illegal. So I would need a frame that would allow me to have only legal part for worlds, so I would put
the magura brakes on.

Why do so many think one has to do things only one way. You need to beat me up for racing with a round tubed bike for the last ten years. Still have not done too badly. So many have stated to spend 5 to 10K to
save a minute is totally stupid. I tend to agree with them

Thanks for all the inputs you give on these topics. I do take them to heart. It is just a good engineer keeps asking why, which drives non engineers NUTS.

And yep, I like to not be a lemming.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree. I agree with everything folks are saying.

But what is wrong with brainstorming with no limits could something be done. I did not say it had to be faster, or less cost, etc. I just started a thread asking COULD something be not,
not asking if it were worth doing.

So why is it not possible for some to just have fun doing a what if exercise? I see you, Jack and others having great knowledge to have fun with a what if.

Brainstorming with no negative feedback was so hard to get even many engineers to do. Most just right away want to say impossible, or it cannot work because of this or that.
Brainstorming is a process where NO idea is judged. You just get all the ideas out. One idea brings out another idea. When all the ideas are done, they you start to
see if some things can be grouped together. The team just works the process with no bias as to what may come out at the end, which may be nothing. But you sure do not
stop the creative ideas before one even gets started.

So would love to have you just brainstorm with me could this be done without worrying about would it make any sense. Give it a try, it really is fun to think outside the box on things.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

A good engineer also knows how to separate true function from "fashion"...and if your questioning is resulting in driving good engineers nuts, then maybe you're missing something ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Nope, a good engineer never ever judges anything at the start of a brain storming session. Oh well, I tried.

So any others who have an open mind and have ideas?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I love disc brakes on all terrain and all weather training and gravel bikes (like this). But I'm not a big believer in disc brakes on TT bikes when every second counts. That said, I think there is only one true tri geometry bike made with a disc brake option (front only), that is a model sold by Ceepo.




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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Well...before brainstorming a solution, you need to accurately state the problem you are trying to solve.

In your case, based upon your previous statements, the problem is "How do I go at least 2 minutes faster over a bike split for the same effort?"...NOT the title of this thread.

After all, without the desire to go faster on your bike splits if you head back to the WC, would you even be considering a new bike in the first place?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Dave, you are really consumed on the disc brake subject. Even in the other thread of the bike crash in TDU you mention it. Personally I don't think you use brakes enough in Tri to justify disc brakes and to gain any advantage if there is one.

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Twitter@Forsey37

That is not the problem I am trying to solve with this thread. Again, you are putting your bias in. Yep, I agree the issue statement as to be agreed upon first. And I thought it was very simple, could a
frame be built? No where do I put any limits on anything.

I have a seperate issue statement for me that is what can I build that might give me a minute or two with the same effort on the bike. I have a list right in front of me
I am building for this possibility which is a P3. Have gotten great inputs for this list. And many will say that putting magura brakes on is a waste or money. Doing 11 speed
is a waste of money. Putting Di2 on is a waste of money. I sure agree with them, but have decided I might not want to leave this money to my kids when I die, why
not enjoy some of it on myself with a toy or maybe two. So many said my water car was a waste of money and they were right, but boy did we have fun with it
and get lots of looks. :)

These are two different issues statements I am playing with. Could they ever overlap? If it is impossible to find a frame builder who could build something for a decent price
that could meet both needs, then I just implement the P3 build I am collecting data on right now.

So I ask again, want to brainstorm with me this threads issue statement without any bias on what might come out at the end?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Consumed? Nope. Love to debate the topic since so many, not all, just want to kill anything they do not like, even thought most have never used, just like powercranks. :)

Yes, I love to tease, one of my flaws. Call me an ass, but man, life is just too just to get worked up on these things like it is life or death.

But I always get great inputs out of these debates that I think about and helps guide me to solutions. Might not be what some agree with, but makes it fun for me.

As some have said, if you do lots of hill stuff, they might be a little safer. And yep, I do LOTS of hill stuff so I would be more than willing to get a little more safety
at the expense of being a little slower, unless its a worlds race. I could just rent a top of the line bike for that one race if needed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I wrote them and they said for 2015 that it is front only. That is easy to do since just a removable fork change. Great looking bike

So, what does the ceepo viper cost?

What are the brake levers? Seems they are the same for both the front disc and read standard?

If one wanted to take this to a UCI event, could one take off the front disc and put on a regular brake?
I assume other than the front disc the bike is UCI legal?

Thanks for the inputs.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I would add that I was also not satisfied with the braking power and control of modern TT bikes (some have flawed brake designs, and all brakes have limited effectiveness with carbon rims). But disc brakes are not the optimal solution for a TT bike. For me, the combo of zipps with alloy rims, full kool stop salmon pads, and caliper brakes that clamp and modulate incredibly well has solved all braking issues for me. Might for you too.

Greg @ dsw


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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

I believe the Ceepo is legal for all non-draft tri events.
The front is where ~ 90% of the braking action is, that' the spot to put a disc if you have to.
But have no idea how much the ceepos cost.

But the aero penalty of a front disc brake of sufficient size to provide great braking with a safety margin is substantial.


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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Thanks for these type of inputs, as I said, just doing what if.

I wrote them again asking some questions.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thanks for the inputs!!

So are the best caliper brakes the Magura's or do you stay away because they are hydraulic? Or do you recommend something else which is the best balance?

And yep, I want my wheels with alloys rims. NO desire for the carbon stuff. That is what all my wheels have on them today.

I really am putting my list of parts together with inputs like yours for a P3, or P2 rebuild.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One thing to keep in mind is that ceepo and culprit don't have the proven aero chops that cervelo has. Nor will any custom steel/aluminum builder except maybe English or if you can get someone to go outside of their norm.

You could see if someone like ruckus/calfee would put disc mounts on a new p3. Now, I am of the mind that you shouldn't do such a thing but its something you -could possibly- do.

Also, you will be stuck with mechanical disc brakes on a tt bike, no? Most of the "gushing" about road discs relates to hydros where you get a really light lever feel.

My suggestion is to buy the P3, ride it, and in 5 or so years there either will or won't be great tri disc options, that are proven, vetted, tested. As superdave from felt said, it(aero bikes from big companies with disc brakes) is probably not going to happen sooner. Then get a new bike. Maybe get a P2 just so you don't feel had when you want to replace your bike in 5 years.