To me it's an issue because it's not just that the resistance is off, it's the power reported. In particular it's moving work below CP to above and vice versa, which throws off metrics like W'.

I guess I ultimately may end up having to buy another power meter to solve my problem.

I do believe this is a fixable issue by kickr but if the strain gauge is mounted as believed this is going to have to be a software calculation and not full true power number. There should be a way to do this calculation in the software. There are known values for speed and change of resistance. Using the known change in resistance along with the change in speed over time they should be able to derive a power number.

For example if resistance doesn't change and speed increases over 3 seconds you should be able to calculate the amount of force it took to do the increase in speed instead of just the absolute power on the flywheel. I think it just makes things allot more software/calculation based instead just feeding through the raw power number.

I believe zpower has a similar concept employed.

Nate, I appreciate the continual improvements to TR. I've installed the IOS updates on my phone and ipad, but have not tried them yet. I installed the new PC version before last night's session and used it.

Yeouch!!!......was what I was feeling in each of the 8 minute intervals. The first two were in my L5 range and the last two were in my upper L4 range based on a custom workout. What I noticed on the upper right side of the laptop display was ERG watts flashing and then the interval target and power meter watts displayed on the upper left side showing the variability between the two sides.

I believe that ERG watts flashing on the right side is new and is showing how the Kickr is applying resistance?

It felt as if the majority of the time I looked up at the display the ERG resistance was 10+ watts higher than the target and power meter watts. The reality was it pretty much averaged out at the end and was only a watt or two different than each of the programmed interval targets. Very good result as it has been for me since you guys incorporated power meter control.

When in L5 intensity those spikes that are 10+ plus higher than the target really sting, but I accept those and believe if anything it will help me improve. I can always dial it back a percent or more when I reach the rest periods for the next interval if I feel like residual fatigue is too much on those days, which is what I had to do last night before the last interval. For intensities below L5 should be just fine. Even in the last interval where I reduced the interval to 95% into my L4 range, but much of it still spiked into L5. That last interval was still tough, but I believe this type of variability in ERG mode is similar to how it would appear if I were on the road and is fairly realistic feeling IMO. I was on a route a couple weekends ago with a 15 minute climb where I was in my L4 range and the end result appears very close to how these ERG intervals look in the application with power meter control.


Is this similar to what you and your team have experienced using the new updates along with a Kickr?


Good stuff as far as I am concerned compared to the original condition of the Kickr back when I started using and it was about 15+/- watts higher than 3 of my power meters. I was undertraining for the first two months until the post ride data trends were looking unrealistic. Had I given that data from those first Kickr days to a coach they would have thought that I was their best athlete and they were the best coach ever. :-)

I also noticed you guys now how E-Motion rollers listed as a device. I have a set of those rollers and can install the wireless control when it's available. Have you personally tried the E-Motion setup? If so do you like it? I've been using E-Motion rollers for several years now and think they are one of the best indoor trainers available. I decided not to apply for being the Beta test and will have to wait to see.

Yah, others have mentioned the same more "road like feel" because the trainer is constantly adjusting to try to keep up with your power meter. The guys in the office like it more, I kinda like just a really smooth power output.

You might want to try the manual offset setting for PowerMatch. You can just set it to a constant 15 watts and it will be just as smooth as before.

I'm not sure what ERG watts flashing on the right side is. Could that be a bug?

I have a confession...I've never been on rollers :). There's others in the office that have used it and like it.

I'm really happy with how the iOS app is turning out. We're almost done with video workouts for iOS. Once that's done we're all hands on deck for a complete desktop revamp!

We also just implemented Ride Sync through our website. You can have your rides automatically sync to Strava, Trainingpeaks and Dropbox now :). You can also choose to sync your entire history when you initially setup your connection to the other services. We just released that yesterday. :)

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

In the beta version I remember seeing the ERG number in the upper right too. Similar to the stats that flash on the screen at the end of an interval - every 10-30 seconds the erg watts setting flashes above the active window in the upper right corner. This is not directly on the TR window because I was running in horizontal mode and the erg number would show in the upper right on top of my zwift window.

So it seems a Kickr 2.0 should have strain gauges built into the large pulley wheel directly connected to the cassette and then should use a chain rather than a rubber belt to minimize issues with temperature drift. Correct?

I do believe you are correct - Basically it would be a powertap comparable (rear hub) strain gauge placement. I think the chain vs. belt becomes a very minor concern if you move the strain gauge. Temperatures can change in any workout regardless of the trainer setup and that needs to be compensated for. A bulk of the heat is likely from the resistance unit and the belt which builds up in and around that heavy flywheel. You are moving the strain gauges away from this large heat source. Plus belt tightness/flexibility/heat will not impact true power numbers if the power is read before that connection.

Just my thoughts - I think you are on to something that Wahoo could do. Although I would more expect them investing in some form of acceleration/deceleration software algorithm vs. a design change because that would solve past and future vs. just future.

Nate,
I am curious since you like using the PowerMatch offset option if you still do a pre training spin down and is there any drift with the Kickr?
My guess is that a spin down is necessary and drift is a potential issue since it is relying on the Kickr.

During my testing earlier in the year I did not experience much drift, but some users on this thread mentioned quite a bit of drift. What I do like now with PM control is that my Quarq ELSA does not require a lengthy warm up period. In fact since it remains in the same room it is fairly stable from the point I wake it up, but I know each brand can vary.

The post workout Strava automated upload worked like a charm last night and the flashing trainer wattage on right upper corner mention in my last post is now gone after the PC updated TR on Monday.

Great to hear the automated upload is working! :) I think we've synced 40k workouts in like 24 hours. Pretty cool!

I found that bug that you were experiencing with the flashing power and removed it in that last 2.7.2 update. Sorry about that.

If you have power match on, it will account for any Kickr drift. That being said, it's still a good thing to do a spin down before every ride. It doesn't hurt and it just takes a minute.

The reason why it will account for Kickr drift is that it constantly checks the difference between your power meter and Kickr. So if it's 10 watts at the beginning of the workout and then 15 at the end it will take those extra 5 watts into account.

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Nate, thanks for answering and helping another person over at the other place. (being careful not to break any rules)

Nate,

Quick question about TrainerRoad and the KICKR. If I've selected the option to use my Quarq to control the KICKR, which device's power numbers are being displayed in "Standard" mode?

In some sessions when I'm starting to struggle in Erg mode I press "M" and switch to Standard mode to finish a rep or set without getting dragged down with increasing resistance as my cadence starts to drop.

I also manually switch to Standard mode for 100% sprint efforts so I can change gears rather than spin out in Erg mode if I exceed the target wattage.

It always feels a bit easier in Standard mode than Erg mode. Is this just me, or is TrainerRoad reporting inflated KICKR watts in Standard mode, but lower Quarq adjusted watts in Erg mode?

Thanks

If you have a power meter and an electronic trainer paired we always show the power from the power meter. We figure that if you pair a power meter, you'll want to see the power from that device.


It's probably due to some inertial thing that's different in Standard vs ERG. If you've got your Quarq paired you'll be getting the exact same quality of measurement and source of power (your quarq) whether you're in ERG mode or Standard mode.

Hope that helps!

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Definitely helps. Thanks for the confirmation!

Overly aggressive erg mode simulates a smaller flywheel? That was certainly the case with the older VeloTron software. I always found it ironic that they put a huge flywheel on it and then negated it with their erg mode.

I find a big difference with the gearing (obviously). If you're in 50/11 you're going to have a lot of inertia and a more road like feel. If you want to work on your pedal stroke be in 34/28 :).

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

All hands on deck for a complete desktop revamp???

I like the sounds of that, for a while now I have been wishing we could view or customise the data fields/metrics that we see while training. Any idea on how long this revamp will take?

Our launch timeline is mid sept for PC. I'm really proud with out fast my peeps are building this and how well it's turning out :). It also lays the groundwork to build a bunch of features that you guys have been asking for.

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Quick question-

I have my power meter and kicker paired to TR and have the external power meter checked in the devices tab on TR. When I have both devices paired I get 0 power reading but once I unpair the power meter I get a power reading.

I want to control the trainer with my power meter but seems I'm doing something wrong.

thanks

Hmm...Could you email support@trainerroad.com with this question? Dan has asked us not to do support directly on the forum.

A few things to send in: Are you using iOS, mac or pc? What power meter are you using? What trainer are you using? Have you updated to our latest software at http://www.trainerroad.com/install?

---

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Will do on emailing your support thanks.

Just curious as to what people are doing now. With the latest firmware for Kickr installed (.32) is the best thing to check the box for letting external PM control the Kickr in BOTH the Wahoo fitness app, and Trainerroad? Or just Trainerroad?

Also, is it best to do a spindown before every ride? and if so, with a cold Kickr or only after a warm-up?

I'm using a Quarq Red 22 with temperature compensation built in. Thanks!

I'm not sure what is the best pre-ride protocol is for warm up. Like you I am using a Quarq (ELSA) and it stays indoor on my trainer bike. It doesn't seem to drift so I am not sure why it is necessary to go through the spin down if the Kickr's resistance is governed by the application through a more dependable power meter source. That being the case I zero the offset of the Quarq and start the workout in either TrainerRoad or PerfPro.

This is probably what frustrates me the most about Wahoo. It seems like they could have come out with some helpful guides on their webpage on best practices and settings for users to get the best possible workout. Even when I talked with their technicians in the beginning of the year trying to figure out these things I would get a different answer each time as to when and how long one should warm up the equipment before doing the spin down. Often it would be different than what was posted on their website.

Now that I have a lot of confidence in the Quarq controlling the effort based on comparing post ride data I've settled in to being a happy Kickr user. It is a lot more pleasant not having an extensive warm up of equipment when I am time crunched and I can now use one source of data and my actual FTP number in the applications without having to do a lot of trickery to get the training and recording of data correct.

I think you should be able to do the same.

Thanks, that's all really helpful info. Have you been using the Kickr with the box checked for using external PM in both the Wahoo app, or just in TR? I've heard of people doing both and others just checking it in TR but not in Wahoo.

The thing I've noticed when using my Quarq to control the Kickr is that when I am in ERG mode I don't feel like there is as much inertia/road feel, sort of a feeling like I am constantly pedaling uphill or that the Kickr is slowing my cadence down constantly. I theorize that is because TR is constantly applying the brakes to get the Kicker aligned with my Quarq... wondering if you've noticed that or if you have any suggestions. I wonder if its worse for Kickr units that run very high relative to external PM, which mine does (30-45 watts in most instances - and its not constant either, it changes with how many watts I am putting out).

I have it checked for using the external power meter in all applications, but since I don't initiate the Wahoo app it doesn't seem to matter. In fact when the Wahoo firmware first came out and I applied it to the Kickr and after that point the power meter control seemed to work regardless. It was working in TR before TR even came out with power meter control option. So it seems that with the firmware applied my power meter sensor is now applied to the Kickr and works all the time. But through trying a lot of different settings I have not seen a difference one way or another.

Maybe others can chime in if they have noticed a difference.

Because my pedal style is far from being smooth and the Quarq is showing constant variability the Kickr is also constantly trying to adjust. What I have noticed that the Kickr is typically to the higher side of my interval wattage in ERG, but at the end of the interval it typically averages out to be right on the interval target. There are some other little issues that happen randomly as well. Like it will go 20+ watts higher at the start of some interval applying the brake to compensate for the interval jump. I just bite my tongue and bear the discomfort until it adjust down to the target. So there are some little things like that, but overall I feel like it is working well for training.

I've had a similar experience. At the start of an interval the Kickr is usually to the high side of the interval wattage in ERG, then there is this sort of game where TR is trying to adjust the Kickr to try to get it in line with where the interval should ultimately land at wattage wise. Ultimately, for me it makes for a less smooth feeling interval than if I was running the Kickr on its own without my PM controlling it. Very frustrating. Maybe TR has improved its algorithm as I have admittedly used standard mode for the last few months out of frustration (and thus turned my Kickr into a dumb trainer).

At least a few months ago the braking sensation that I was getting when using external PM to control the Kickr in ERG mode was so bad that my cadences would always slow down until I was down in the 60s range. I was generally pretty tired going into the workouts so I didn't have the energy to spin, but it always felt like I was fighting to get the cadence back up. That's when I went to standard mode just to get my workouts done.

Thanks for your input.