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Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some trail bike qualities
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I'm looking to get a new mtb. I like light xc bikes with low stack heights, super short stems and steep seat tubes. I recently road a fully decked out Cannondale Scalpel and I loved the geometry and the short chain stays. What I did not like was the 80mm of travel. Now, to be fair, this can be increased to 100 or 110mm, which is really as much as I need being relatively light. Here's the other thing, the big thing: I can jump on an Ibis Ripley or Specialized Camber and while I don't like the geometry or the weight, and I just don't need the 120+mm of travel, I really like the fact that I can point the bike up or down a wall of roots and mindlessly pedal up or float down the section. When I'm 15+ miles into a xc ride or race with my heart pounding through my chest, I'm going to benefit from that mindless aspect compared to feeling like a trials rider stalling, cat walking and hopping up the same super steep root section, even when running really low tire pressure.

I'm wondering if I were to put slightly wider rims (same width tires or slightly wider tires) on the Scalpel, Top Fuel, Turner Czar or Intense Spyder if that's all that's needed to enjoy the weight and geometry of a xc rig but have that mindless enjoyable climbing and descending ability. The Ripley I road had the same width tires as the Scalpel, just wider rims.

It's a bit tough to demo such a set up, to ask for the longer travel option on the Lefty fork for the scalpel and have different wider rims put on. Anyone with feedback and suggestions?

Thanks!

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Dec 5, 16 11:52
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Try to look at Cannondale Trigger, it's between XC and Enduro
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Look at the new Scott Spark range. 120 mm travel, but xc capable.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I have a Camber Carbon Expert. 130mm travel, mini-brain shock. It's bloody brilliantly. Came from a hard tail Scott Scale and would highly recommend it.

I also do XC racing and plan on doing my first Xterra race next year. We ride the Redwoods in Rotorua and this bike climbs like a demon and descends even better.

I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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I second the spark. Xc bike but in full suspension mode can handle most descents. Get the 29 inch version.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [Samarskyrider] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I'm not a fan of the Trigger geometry. I'm a bit more interested in hearing from people as to what the factor is that allows bikes like the Ripley and Camber to climb and descend so mindlessly. I'm not convinced it's more travel or geometry, but I'm also not sure if it is rim and tire width.

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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Another vote for the new Scott Spark but also look at the new Giant Anthem.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Interestingly, most cross country racing is done on bikes at 100mm of travel or less.

You really need two different bikes. True "enduro" and XC do not mix well together.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks,

still really curious as to what allows a bike like the Ripley to climb so mindlessly compared to a xc bike. I'm thinking it's the tires and/or rim width, but I don't have the ability to go out test this. I'm only looking for 100-110mm of travel, so I don't see the need for a second enduro bike. I'm wanting a XC bike that has the traction on steep climbs like an enduro bike. just put on wider rims and/or wider tires?

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Interestingly, most cross country racing is done on bikes at 100mm of travel or less.

You really need two different bikes. True "enduro" and XC do not mix well together.
Not necessarily. As mentioned I do XC racing and bought a Camber. I think it's the perfect mix of what I need for my 'fun' riding and something for racing on.


milesthedog wrote:
Thanks,

still really curious as to what allows a bike like the Ripley to climb so mindlessly compared to a xc bike. I'm thinking it's the tires and/or rim width, but I don't have the ability to go out test this. I'm only looking for 100-110mm of travel, so I don't see the need for a second enduro bike. I'm wanting a XC bike that has the traction on steep climbs like an enduro bike. just put on wider rims and/or wider tires?
Whilst my Camber climbs really well, I think that's a combination of drivetrain and suspension components. For instance I've got a SRAM 1x and rear suspension with the mini-brain. This means I don't get the suspension bob you get on full suspension bikes, and don't have to worry about locking out the rear. Formrdces I can firm it up as well as its got 4 settings on the mini-brain from soft to hard. Actually might be 5. I'm not racing right now so it's set a bit softer than it would otherwise be.

Oh another option could be a 2016 Giant Anthem SX. 120mm up front and 100mm rear travel. All with the Anthem's XC geometry. A mate has one and loves it. Very different to ride than my Camber.

I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes
Last edited by: BayDad: Dec 3, 16 10:18
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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The scalpel has 100 mm, not 80. The suspension is on the stiff side though. I have the previous gen scalpel but I run a 90 mm stem, wide bars and flipped headset spacer. It's still twitchy compared to my Habit SE though.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I would say the Scott Spark, Giant Anthem, and Yeti ASR all fit into what you're looking for. There are variations of the spark and anthem that range from very racy to more trail friendly. A lot of classic xc race bikes are going more aggressive this year to capture a larger audience and because a lot of courses are becoming more technical.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [ko21] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks,

Can someone explain which component/factor is allowing me to bike up a wall of roots with one hand on the bars while talking to a friend and grabbing a drink with an enduro bike, but it takes mad skills to get up that same climb on xc bike? tires/rims? sorry to keep asking the same question, but I'm pretty curious

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Suspension setup (not necessarily the ACTUAL suspension component itself, but the way you have set up the shock/fork for sag/firmness/etc), tire type/size/pressure, placebo.

Also, you keep saying "enduro" but I am sure you don't actually mean enduro bikes. "Enduro" bikes are big, nasty, almost downhill trail bikes. Like 150mm+ travel. Maybe you mean "trail" bikes.
Last edited by: James Haycraft: Dec 3, 16 11:32
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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Yea but your Camber isn't as "good at climbing" as the Epic, for example. And it isn't as "good at descending" as the Enduro. The Camber is a compromise. Every bike is a compromise, the differences are just mroe apparent on mountain bikes.

It's like asking if a P3 is the best bike to climb Alpe D'Huez with; sure, it can climb better than some other road going bikes, but there are better horses for courses.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I know that. And hats exactly the reason I bought it. Was keen on an Epic but also wanted a bike I could go and just have fun on and for me the Epic was just too 'racey'. Climbing wise I think it's great by the way. I don't know if there's actually that much difference between the two.

So the op really need to decide - does he want a XC race bike? If so an Epic, Spark, Anthem would be perfect. Does he want more of a fun bike? If so a Camber, Anthem SX would be perfect.

But first answer the question - full on race, or mix of race/fun. Which is what lead me to the Camber.

I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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Just a note, the 2017 Specialized Camber is not supposed to be able to run a 3 inch tire, but it will. So if you are looking for a bit more traction that is something to consider. Clearance isn't great, but we have run it with no issues.


Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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yep, you're right. I've been meaning to say 'trail bike'.

The guy at the Cannondale booth at the last demo I did was saying he and his coworkers have been playing with removing the bands from within the rear shock, putting the front shock at 110mm of travel, and squeezing 41" rims with 2.35" front and 2.25" rear tires to change up the ride of the Scalpel.

The 120mm Spark Ultimate does look appealing.

To the climbing comments, I'll say this: true xc bikes are great at climbing, especially up non-technical climbs, but xc rigs that I've ridden and raced are not great at climbing rooty, wet 30%+ grades. Bikes the like the Camber do much better at the latter. I'm trying to decipher why this is so. tires? wider rims? how the suspension is set up? How can you set up a xc rig to climb those rooty, wet 30%+ grades like a trail bike inherently does out of the box?

I appreciate the feedback.

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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt you're going to go up a 30% climb very fast so suspension isn't likely to gain you much. I'd say that traction and geometry are the most important factors here.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [Jim] [ In reply to ]
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Jim wrote:
Just a note, the 2017 Specialized Camber is not supposed to be able to run a 3 inch tire, but it will. So if you are looking for a bit more traction that is something to consider. Clearance isn't great, but we have run it with no issues.

I'm assuming 3" 650b+?
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I own a last-gen Superfly 100 and find it a brilliant bike for my kind of riding (XC and XCM), but when I test-rode the Top Fuel (big mistake, given my lack of budget) and new Scalpel FSi I realised these are the steeds I've always wanted: They're as crisp and sharp as my Superfly when it comes to climbing and churning out race miles, but on a tight, techy singletrack they're just that much more fun.

Modern-geo XC bikes are truly the one-bike MTB quiver for me. I'd look at the Top Fuel, Scalpel, or the Rocky Mountain and Scott models with a 120mm fork if you're feeling a bit rowdier.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [tessar] [ In reply to ]
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+1 for Rocky Mountain, specifically the Element. The new version increases front travel from 100mm to 120mm from the previous version (which was really good itself).
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a Focus Spine 27.5 120mm that does pretty well navigating both sides of the line depending on how you have it set up.
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone like the Orbea Oiz?
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Re: Choosing a mtb: xc racer with some enduro qualities [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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There are many factors at play here:
(* Note, some generalities made for the sake of simplicity)

1. Tire choice / Set up
- Obviously beefier tires will give you more traction, but as you noted the Ibis and the Scalpel had the same tires, so it's not the entire story. Wider rims will cause the tire to be more "square" ie. the offset between center tread and sideknobs will be less. This will decrease the vagueness of the transition from upright to leaned over. It will also increase the rolling resistance as the beefier sideknobs are touching the ground more often. Will this help traction, sure, but again it's not the entire story (don't expect a revolution with slightly wider rims). Go fully extreme and you get to the plus sized tires. A plus sized tire at low pressure (under 20) will change your rough climbing and help you transition into a mountain goat. But, they roll slower and can fold under extremely aggressive riding (e.g. no one on a triathlon forum).

2. Bike Geometry
- Mountain bike geometry is all over the map. So many seat-tube angles and head tube angles. As a rule of thumb the steeper the better the bike will behave going up, the slacker the more confident on the down. Seeing as though you like the up and down better, this probably isn't the key.

3. Suspension Travel
- This is potentially it. With short travel bikes the volume of the air canister is low, which means the shock rates ramp up quickly. This means the bike has to be set up stiff to not blow through travel AND the rate ramps up quickly as you work into that travel. It's Stiff x Stiff = 3xStiff. When the Cannondale guys talked about taking bands out, I assume they meant taking out volume reducers which makes the rate more linear. This makes the bike feel "plusher" at the expense of increased bottoming out. (Note, this is why most DH and long travel bikes run coil instead of air-shocks they're much more linear).

The increased travel and changes in spring rate cause a few things to happen.
a. With the increased sag, the travel can extend into a recess keeping better contact and control. (Just as car suspensions extend into pot-holes, they don't just skip over them.
b. Small bump sensitivity improves. This helps you stay isolated from the ground and keep the pedals churning. Your center of mass moves in one direction instead of bouncing up and down.
c. Longer travel (and wider bars) instantly add smiles, so even though you may be going slower, you're having more fun.

4. Suspension design
- The Ibis uses a DW-Link which is a highly engineered system. It is designed to allow plush suspension under pedaling and braking with minimal pedal-bob. The Specialized uses a Horst-Link which is a moderately engineered system for plush suspension under pedaling and braking but with more bob during pedaling (hence the "Brain" to help eliminate that).

- There are other designs out there. The simplest is called a Single-Pivot, which means the rear triangle is solid and the chain stay is connected via a single pivot to the downtube / seat tube.This is the system that Cannondale uses. (Benefits: Light, Simple to maintain) This means that the rear-axle will follow a simple arcing path. If the pivot is place high (a la Orange Dh Bike) The arc of the axle will be moving up and backward as the suspension compresses. This makes for a great feeling on the downhill as the rearward movement of the axle allows the wheel to track over rocks well, but a lot of pedal feedback because the axle is moving away from the bottom bracket as the suspensions compresses. The increased length causes the chain to pull backward on the cranks and suddenly your pedaling is affected by the ground. Low single pivots are still affected, though to a lesser degree, but they also give up the plush downhill. This is because the axle travels more or less vertical.

The engineered systems tend to have the rear axle follow a complex path, to try to maximize plushness which reducing pedal feedback etc.

Pivot location also affects the anti-squat of the design. This is the tendency for a suspension to extend /stiffen under pedal load. High anti-squat creates a strong pedaling bike that has less active suspension. On a single pivot this is easier to see as the height of the pivot is a big determinant. On a complex suspension, it's more complicated.

The other issue with single-pivots is that suspension tends to stiffen up when braking. Horst-link and Dw-link are less prone to that (they remain "Active under braking").

The advance course covers how "Leverage Ratio" changes with each design...

I'm willing to bet that this is a large part of the difference you are feeling.

Short Travel Bikes:
Many XC bikes have simple suspensions: Yeti ASRc is single pivot, as is Cannondale and the Scott Spark.

Giant Anthem does not, they use "Maestro" I've never ridden it. It's designed to get around some of the single pivot issues.
Trek Top Fuel has pivots on both sides of the shock which causes the rate to be a bit linear, but like Specialized doesn't pedal as well.
Specialized Epic uses the Horst-link which is active as well.
Yeti SB4.5 is their shortest travel bike with "Switch Infinity"

You start getting into the more plush designs when you go 1 travel length further to the 120ish range

Yeti sb5c
Ibis Ripley
Pivot Mach 429

5. Misc
-Suspension set-up.
a. Rebound and compression damping
b. Shock Pressures

- Bars
a. Width

Further Reading and watching
http://blistergearreview.com/recommended/suspension-101-designs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBJPLY4xukU (Instant Center)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0bAVTiFyy4 (Anti-squat)



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Last edited by: xtrpickels: Dec 5, 16 10:50
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