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Profile Design Aeria Ultimate aerobar and stem
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2018 Races:
Oceanside 70.3, Oceanside, CA, April 7th | Ironman Texas, The Woodlands, TX, April 28th | Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jönköping 70.3, Jönköping, Sweden, July 8th

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Sep 23, 17 17:17
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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I have the Enve SES aerobar system, but not the stem. I had to use another one, but I have to say all of the fitters that have seen this system were blown away. The flexibility is incredible and now that it's on the bike, I absolutely love it. The independent tilt of extensions, the ability to choose the extension type you use, mounting options for those pads and extensions are some very nice features. The basebar ends are textured so you don't need bar tape. It's a very well thought out, really nice system.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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There seem to be a lot of assumption that the Aeria Ultimate is fast in the tunnel, but have we actually seen anything that indicates this yet? It looks good, but I haven't seen any data, or hint of any.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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minimalist wrote:
There seem to be a lot of assumption that the Aeria Ultimate is fast in the tunnel, but have we actually seen anything that indicates this yet? It looks good, but I haven't seen any data, or hint of any.

2 things about this:

1. the designer of that bar is on the forum, so he'll tell you i presume. he's got software which can aero model, which he designed himself, so he is not naive to aerodynamics as a data point in product design.

2. of all the things on the bike that i'm not particularly aero-obsessed, the bar is at the top of the list. i'm much more interested in adjustability, ergonomics, and sturdiness. after that comes cable routing, integration with stems. somewhere way after that comes the aerodynamic performance of the bar itself (sans rider).


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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Too much frontal area associated with all that Enve tilt hardware, especially if extensions are under the bar. Plus the cable routing on the Enve bar makes the build an absolute nightmare and then the turns in that routing are so tight / sharp that if you're using rim brakes or mech actuated hydros the modulation of your braking is compromised. You also have to consider your preferred bull horn position. The grips are really swept forward compared to other bars and if you have an aggressive position and/or a lot of pad stack and/or short arms you might not like this. I actually do like it because with the under mount setup and normal arms the bullhorn location relative to my pads isn't that crazy. But I know people who hate this aspect of the bar.

I don't have any experience with the Aeria thing but I know it's what I would buy if I could hit my stack on it. I'd need a 54 P4, which I have actually considered buying so I can try this bar. I just can't wrap my head around buying a bike with notoriously poor braking and clearance issues.

Anyways I think the 51 Speed Shop front end at least belongs in the conversation here, as well as the Alpha X, which is surely the most aero. The Culprit bar/stem should probably be considered too -- we don't know enough about it yet though.

The Enve bar and the Zipp bar are both long in the tooth. They are old bars and front end systems and neither of those companies seem to give a shit about updating them or innovating in this space because they would rather focus on products normal people actually buy on which they actually make money (i.e. wheels). I don't know why anyone buys one of those bars with all these better new options hitting the market
Last edited by: kileyay: Sep 9, 17 7:35
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
minimalist wrote:
There seem to be a lot of assumption that the Aeria Ultimate is fast in the tunnel, but have we actually seen anything that indicates this yet? It looks good, but I haven't seen any data, or hint of any.


the designer of that bar is on the forum, so he'll tell you i presume. he's got software which can aero model, which he designed himself, so he is not naive to aerodynamics as a data point in product design.


I haven't seen any aero data and while I haven't asked him but he has heavily hinted here that the system with the new bottle is quite a bit faster than without. I just don't like integrated hydration like that on my bike, but if it is fast enough and functional enough that I guess I'd have to consider using it on race day.
Last edited by: kileyay: Sep 9, 17 7:51
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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I would wait to make any decision until the week of Kona. Just sayin'. ;-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Slowman wrote:
minimalist wrote:
There seem to be a lot of assumption that the Aeria Ultimate is fast in the tunnel, but have we actually seen anything that indicates this yet? It looks good, but I haven't seen any data, or hint of any.


the designer of that bar is on the forum, so he'll tell you i presume. he's got software which can aero model, which he designed himself, so he is not naive to aerodynamics as a data point in product design.


I haven't seen any aero data and while I haven't asked him but he has heavily hinted here that the system with the new bottle is quite a bit faster than without. I just don't like integrated hydration like that on my bike, but if it is fast enough and functional enough that I guess I'd have to consider using it on race day.

what kind of hydration do you like? and look, i'm in the minority. whenever i ask pros - good pros, smart pros - whether they want to slap a bottle gotten on the course into a between-the-extensions cage, and then reach down, grab, pull it out, drink, replace it, that's what they choose. me, i think grabbing a bottle, squirting its contents into a refillable integrated bottle with a drink straw, i think that's far, far better. but i appear to be the only one who thinks so.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I would wait to make any decision until the week of Kona. Just sayin'. ;-)

I can wait a few weeks.

2018 Races:
Oceanside 70.3, Oceanside, CA, April 7th | Ironman Texas, The Woodlands, TX, April 28th | Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jönköping 70.3, Jönköping, Sweden, July 8th

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
what kind of hydration do you like? and look, i'm in the minority. whenever i ask pros - good pros, smart pros - whether they want to slap a bottle gotten on the course into a between-the-extensions cage, and then reach down, grab, pull it out, drink, replace it, that's what they choose. me, i think grabbing a bottle, squirting its contents into a refillable integrated bottle with a drink straw, i think that's far, far better. but i appear to be the only one who thinks so.

I like a round bottle between my arms with the cage securely affixed to the stem, preferably via bosses on that stem, and a round bottle behind my ass with the cage zip tied under the rails.

There are round bottles on course. I can ditch the round bottles I start the bike with. Round bottles are easier to clean, easier to replace, etc. Really loved it when I bought a brand new X-Lab BTA bottle and launched it right out of T2 on a brutal speed bump -- there went $40.

I don't have to deal with sticky shit all over my front end because I get my calories from fluids and in my experience all of these BTA non solutions inevitably leak or spew and probably corrode your IA extension clamps, so these BTA solutions on a Felt may even lead to death or, at minimum, dismemberment.

The straw part of the system is intolerable to me. It has to be cut to the right length for where my head will probably be when I want to take that drink, which varies. When I'm racing my head position is moving up and down depending on what I need to see in front of me. When I know there's nothing ahead that's going to launch me off my bike, my head is basically in my hands. Which means I need to fold this straw down every time I'm not drinking, and pull it back out when I want to drink. That's a very similar level of effort compared to just pulling a round bottle out and drinking from it, which is in and of itself a lot easier when you simply do it while you're climbing/going slow. When climbing you will be out of the saddle anyways. The aero penalty for that drinking will be immaterial and almost all courses have enough out of the saddle hills where you can drink only during those opportunities.

There are other things. Like how it's really difficult to get some of these systems in the right place in my cockpit fore and aft, because of my undermounted extensions. I could go on.

Don't get me wrong, I buy into the theory that these BTA solutions are better, but in practice they have never worked for me. Maybe the system on the Canyon (or the Scott) is the winning ticket -- those I haven't tried. But honestly my experiences with PD BTA products haven't been great
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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well, like i said, i'm in the minority. how i deal with sticky shit on bottles: i clean them. how i deal with the straw: i cut it to the proper length. but then i'm a recognized leader in my field, and i can't assume others can clean a bottle and cut a straw to length with the same skill and talent that i possess.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
I would wait to make any decision until the week of Kona. Just sayin'. ;-)


I can wait a few weeks.

Although I just saw that Trisports fire sale has the PD system (bar and stem combo) for $840. Normally $1200. That might be too good to pass up.

2018 Races:
Oceanside 70.3, Oceanside, CA, April 7th | Ironman Texas, The Woodlands, TX, April 28th | Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jönköping 70.3, Jönköping, Sweden, July 8th

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Too much frontal area associated with all that Enve tilt hardware, especially if extensions are under the bar.
Yeah it's not optimal for under-bar mounting, but otherwise it's a non-issue since the tilt is built into the riser system.

I have the Enve bar on my track bike, so I can't comment about cable routing; but I like the lower, more forward hand position on the bullhorns and overall adjustability is good. Another thing about the Enve bar is just how well it's made; much sturdier than my Tririg Alpha, which feels downright flimsy in comparison. No way I would ever think of using the TriRig for standing starts on the track, but I have no such hesitation about the Enve.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [jsk] [ In reply to ]
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jsk wrote:
kileyay wrote:
Too much frontal area associated with all that Enve tilt hardware, especially if extensions are under the bar.

Yeah it's not optimal for under-bar mounting, but otherwise it's a non-issue since the tilt is built into the riser system.

I have the Enve bar on my track bike, so I can't comment about cable routing; but I like the lower, more forward hand position on the bullhorns and overall adjustability is good. Another thing about the Enve bar is just how well it's made; much sturdier than my Tririg Alpha, which feels downright flimsy in comparison.

Yeah, I have to agree with this assessment. The Enve bar is shockingly rock solid, especially given that it's a two piece system with a standard stem clamp/interface. Going from the Alpha Classic to the Enve bar was like night and day, and Alpha X falls somewhere in between. The HED Corsair was up there too in terms of rock solidness. Of everything I have tried, though, nothing beats the Trek Speed Concept, which is maybe the most aero and most solid front end in existence outside of the Premier Bike Ventus III, but I think that Tactical front end has limitations in adjustability relative to these other market-leading front ends we are talking about.
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"of all the things on the bike that i'm not particularly aero-obsessed, the bar is at the top of the list. i'm much more interested in adjustability, ergonomics, and sturdiness. after that comes cable routing, integration with stems. somewhere way after that comes the aerodynamic performance of the bar itself (sans rider). "

With these priorities, what bar on the market today is your bar of choice?

Scott
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's the mess that can happen during a race or training that is most annoying at least to me. Theoretically, I prefer the method described by you (and used to do that) but gave up on it as there were too many real world issues as outlined by Kiley, among others. Now, its water BTA (as even a regular BTA bottle can leak) and calories behind the ass or perhaps also in downtube for longer course
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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Right now, bang for buck, its profile t3 w/j5 bracket and any old base bar.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The graph below requires a little bit of explanation - in order to fit data for rider on and no rider I've normalised the Aduro curves to 100%, so the Aeria Ultimate (AU) performance is shown relative to that.
As expected - the Aduro is amazing with no rider thanks to the minimal frontal profile. But the AU went ahead with a rider on. We took the AU off and repeated the Aduro test to verify the numbers as the magnitude of the relative performance change was so significant.


The AU offers better pad-basebar separation thanks to the dropped wing. And the wide pedestal base (and wider extension clamps) means there is better airflow over the centre of the bar.
The Enve tested out basically the same as AU with rider on (slightly slower at low yaw and slightly better at high yaw).

One bike brand has tested the HSF Aeria bottle and had a massive performance advantage. If that increment is consistent across frames the bottle will be a must have. I'm trying to get testing sorted to evaluate a variety of frames. The impact on frames with narrow headtubes will have to be assessed before any claims can be made for universal benefit.

There is also a satellite magnet mount for the hose, that allows you to orient the straw close to the hands so you're not reaching back to grab it. With the aim of minimising the movement required to hydrate.

One thing to note with the Aeria 2 is that it's a platform that will continue to be built on. Firstly there are other armrests on the way (that will fit all PD bars) to offer different fit options. Of course, I didn't take any photos of them at Eurobike so have to rely on others - this is the race armrest - intended to tightly cup the arms for narrow positions. I was going to arrange for a sample to be sent to Slowman but a World tour team got in first so there are no more samples left. There is another armrest that offers a more gentle curve for general use.

There are other Aeria 2 items on the way, some just alternatives, others will be unique innovations.

For me bars are all about fit - which is why the AU has the largest fit range of anything that doesn't have sliders (which just offer smaller x increments for Felt and Trek). The Enve has limited width adjustment and large steps in X. What I don't like about the Enve is the weak armrests that don't offer a firm control base.

By having a range of extension options, 15deg of built in tilt, 7.5mm x increments, 5mm stack increments and 18.5mm width increments as well as (soon) 3 armrest options you will need to be a very special snowflake to not be able to optimise your position with the AU.

One of the criticisms of the AU is the weight of the stem, but now the Enve is 100g heavier so it's pretty clear that these type of stems are not light!


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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Bang for the buck aside, do you see any downside associated with the Aeria Ultimate relative to the T3/J5?

Scott
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Can the AU be configured for a standard bottle BTA?

"I like a round bottle between my arms with the cage securely affixed to the stem, preferably via bosses on that stem"

Scott
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
Can the AU be configured for a standard bottle BTA?

Yes, the bridge for the spacer pedestal can have a BTA attachment added.
You have fore/aft adjustment by choosing which of the squares locks into the hole on the bridge:


This is the same BTA mount that fits on the J5 bridge.
I realise that the instructions for the AU are sparse and that this sort of info should be covered, I shall be taking charge of improving the information for the bar.

The downside of any integrated bar is less flexibility compared to a modular setup. However, the AU narrows the differential to the point that there isn't a practical downside. The modular bars can get the pads slightly wider but we're talking 27 vs 29 cm so it's special case territory anyway. Obviously the cost is a non-trivial factor, but that mostly goes towards speed.


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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the detailed response! Your transparency and the substance of your replies says a lot about the thought behind the bar.

Here are a couple more for you, if you don't mind:

-Any concerns about running Magura RT8 brakes on the AU?

-The reach from the BB to the back of my pads is 485, of which 437 comes from my size 58 P3 frame. How would you recommend replicating those numbers with the AU? In other words, can I get there with the 70mm or 100mm AU stem?

Thanks again,

Scott
Last edited by: GreatScott: Sep 10, 17 10:10
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Any tilt options for A2?
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
Bang for the buck aside, do you see any downside associated with the Aeria Ultimate relative to the T3/J5? Scott

no downside. great bar.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Choice between the new ENVE SES Aero TT system or the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate. Which would you choose? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the PD Aeria system. That TriSports fire sale was too good to pass up.

2018 Races:
Oceanside 70.3, Oceanside, CA, April 7th | Ironman Texas, The Woodlands, TX, April 28th | Finland 70.3, Lahti, Finland, June 30th | Jönköping 70.3, Jönköping, Sweden, July 8th

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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