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Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
My guess is the 3 month ban would be justified if he actually used it legitimately for medical reasons but forgot to file for a TUE - given that trimetazidine is a relatively recent addition to the WADA banned substance list, that's a somewhat understandable oversight.
In terms of benefits gained from trimetazidine, I would have to defer to some of our more medically savvy people, but if I understand it right, it shifts the metabolic balance favoring glycogen consumption over lipids in the heart - would it affect overall metabolic preference for glycogen? How would either one benefit the athlete?
In terms of benefits gained from trimetazidine, I would have to defer to some of our more medically savvy people, but if I understand it right, it shifts the metabolic balance favoring glycogen consumption over lipids in the heart - would it affect overall metabolic preference for glycogen? How would either one benefit the athlete?
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
China imposed a three month ban so that he would be eligible for the Asian games in September.
What's really troubling is that FINA didn't report the positive (only published it when the media broke the story), and that they didn't contest the paltry three month ban.
ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
What's really troubling is that FINA didn't report the positive (only published it when the media broke the story), and that they didn't contest the paltry three month ban.
ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [cloesch]
[ In reply to ]
I got this from wiki..
Trimetazidine inhibits beta-oxidation of fatty acids by blocking long-chain 3-ketoacyl-CoA thiolase, which enhances glucose oxidation.[6] In an ischaemic cell, energy obtained during glucose oxidation requires less oxygen consumption than in the beta-oxidation process. Potentiation of glucose oxidation optimizes cellular energy processes, thereby maintaining proper energy metabolism during ischaemia
not sure i understand all of it but the bit about 'enhances glucose oxidation' and 'energy obtained during glucose oxidation requires less oxygen consumption' it is a pretty obvious preformance enhancer, hes been cheating and a 3 month ban is nonsense. Just like the UCI and Lance its in the interest of the sports authorities to protect their superstars. How sad
Trimetazidine inhibits beta-oxidation of fatty acids by blocking long-chain 3-ketoacyl-CoA thiolase, which enhances glucose oxidation.[6] In an ischaemic cell, energy obtained during glucose oxidation requires less oxygen consumption than in the beta-oxidation process. Potentiation of glucose oxidation optimizes cellular energy processes, thereby maintaining proper energy metabolism during ischaemia
not sure i understand all of it but the bit about 'enhances glucose oxidation' and 'energy obtained during glucose oxidation requires less oxygen consumption' it is a pretty obvious preformance enhancer, hes been cheating and a 3 month ban is nonsense. Just like the UCI and Lance its in the interest of the sports authorities to protect their superstars. How sad
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
"positive test was caused by an ingredient in medication he was taking for a heart condition" - interesting
In a statement, Sun said he accepted the anti-doping agency's decision and pledged to engage in "deep reflection." - 3 months + "deep reflection" not bad.
In a statement, Sun said he accepted the anti-doping agency's decision and pledged to engage in "deep reflection." - 3 months + "deep reflection" not bad.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
yes the heart condition was that it couldnt pump enough blood for him to reach world class :-)
Wont be the first person to conjure some issue to get around the drug laws...
Wont be the first person to conjure some issue to get around the drug laws...
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [cantswim24]
[ In reply to ]
Where can I get some of this?
Wont be the first person to conjure some issue to get around the drug laws...
cantswim24 wrote:
yes the heart condition was that it couldnt pump enough blood for him to reach world class :-) Wont be the first person to conjure some issue to get around the drug laws...
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Titanflexr]
[ In reply to ]
Titanflexr wrote:
China imposed a three month ban so that he would be eligible for the Asian games in September. What's really troubling is that FINA didn't report the positive (only published it when the media broke the story), and that they didn't contest the paltry three month ban.
The CAS and/or WADA has repeatedly refused to increase suspensions at the request of FINA or other international governing board, IIRC.
Sadly, I'm not surprised at this. There are cases where heart ailments aren't an impingement to world record swimming (see Dana Vollmer and Rebecca Soni) but in the absence of a known issue, and such things tend to become known in the swimming community it's a weird drug to have an accidental positive over.
Doesn't seem to be a repeat of Fred Bosquet's ass cream problems.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
Good reminder that when - as with Rita Jeptoo (and Kenyan runners more generally) or Lance Armstrong - when you have a world class athlete (or group of athletes) that is just that much more dominant - as Sun Yang has been, that chalking it up to "it's genetics" and/or "it's his work ethic," that ought to be a huge red flag.
When you are talking about groups of athletes that are already all, to a certain extent, "freaks of nature," the idea that someone is just that much more of a freak is hard to stomach.
When you saw Sun Yang just crush the field in London or just mow down Ryan Cochrane at WC last year, it was like he was on a different level. Guess maybe he was...
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
When you are talking about groups of athletes that are already all, to a certain extent, "freaks of nature," the idea that someone is just that much more of a freak is hard to stomach.
When you saw Sun Yang just crush the field in London or just mow down Ryan Cochrane at WC last year, it was like he was on a different level. Guess maybe he was...
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
His doctor got a 1yr. ban...presumably for doping him so poorly that he tested positive.
ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
Rappstar wrote:
Good reminder that when - as with Rita Jeptoo (and Kenyan runners more generally) or Lance Armstrong - when you have a world class athlete (or group of athletes) that is just that much more dominant - as Sun Yang has been, that chalking it up to "it's genetics" and/or "it's his work ethic," that ought to be a huge red flag. When you are talking about groups of athletes that are already all, to a certain extent, "freaks of nature," the idea that someone is just that much more of a freak is hard to stomach.
When you saw Sun Yang just crush the field in London or just mow down Ryan Cochrane at WC last year, it was like he was on a different level. Guess maybe he was...
So, given a world record progression like the above, would what you say apply to the record setters in 1900, 1936 and 1968?
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [klehner]
[ In reply to ]
Goggles
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [ajthomas]
[ In reply to ]
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [klehner]
[ In reply to ]
klehner wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
GogglesNot typically effective in the long jump :-)
I was wondering what was on the Y-Axis.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [FLA Jill]
[ In reply to ]
WADA is actually looking at this case...With the priors we have, it's unlikely that anything happens, but who knows...
http://www.lequipe.fr/...er-le-cas-sun/517453
http://www.lequipe.fr/...er-le-cas-sun/517453
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
Ironically...
Belhani D, Fanton L, Vaillant F, Descotes J, Manati W, Tabib A, Bui-Xuan B, Timour Q.
Cardiac lesions induced by testosterone: protective effects of dexrazoxane and
trimetazidine. Cardiovasc Toxicol. 2009;9:64-69.
Belhani D, Fanton L, Vaillant F, Descotes J, Manati W, Tabib A, Bui-Xuan B, Timour Q.
Cardiac lesions induced by testosterone: protective effects of dexrazoxane and
trimetazidine. Cardiovasc Toxicol. 2009;9:64-69.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [klehner]
[ In reply to ]
1968 was a pretty huge exception! It was a one-off jump, which he never matched again in his career, in one of the first major track events held at high altitude (less air resistance), maximum legal tailwind... It would be suspicious if Beamon completely dominated everyone for the remainder of his career, but he didnt! He was good, but he never again came within two feet of that jump.
When you are talking about groups of athletes that are already all, to a certain extent, "freaks of nature," the idea that someone is just that much more of a freak is hard to stomach.
When you saw Sun Yang just crush the field in London or just mow down Ryan Cochrane at WC last year, it was like he was on a different level. Guess maybe he was...
So, given a world record progression like the above, would what you say apply to the record setters in 1900, 1936 and 1968?
klehner wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Good reminder that when - as with Rita Jeptoo (and Kenyan runners more generally) or Lance Armstrong - when you have a world class athlete (or group of athletes) that is just that much more dominant - as Sun Yang has been, that chalking it up to "it's genetics" and/or "it's his work ethic," that ought to be a huge red flag. When you are talking about groups of athletes that are already all, to a certain extent, "freaks of nature," the idea that someone is just that much more of a freak is hard to stomach.
When you saw Sun Yang just crush the field in London or just mow down Ryan Cochrane at WC last year, it was like he was on a different level. Guess maybe he was...
So, given a world record progression like the above, would what you say apply to the record setters in 1900, 1936 and 1968?
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Oh my, that is a brilliant find.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [RFXCrunner]
[ In reply to ]
Well, for one you're ignoring change in technique, technical stuff, introduction of flip turns etc.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Not sure if that reply was directed at me, but if it was, they don't do flip turns in the long jump.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [RFXCrunner]
[ In reply to ]
It was. I assumed (wrongly) that your graph was swimming related (reading on my phone). That said keep in mind the 1968 record was set in Mexico at close to 3000m. Also comes with new tracks etc.
In the 30s there were multiple countries becoming somewhat more professional in sports. I'd have to dig out that info. Also some rather significant change in techniques in the long jump. Pretty sure no flip turns though ;)
In the 30s there were multiple countries becoming somewhat more professional in sports. I'd have to dig out that info. Also some rather significant change in techniques in the long jump. Pretty sure no flip turns though ;)
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [scca_ita]
[ In reply to ]
This a shame. Clearly the lesson to be learned is that "deep reflection" is what cycling has been missing. If only US Postal, Discovery, Once, Telekom, Festina, Mapei etc had "Deep Reflection" programs, cycling would be in such a good place.
The comparisons with long-jumping are tenuous at best.
The comparisons with long-jumping are tenuous at best.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [PT]
[ In reply to ]
PT wrote:
This a shame. Clearly the lesson to be learned is that "deep reflection" is what cycling has been missing.
Re: China Delays Announcement of Sun Yang's Doping Ban [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Geez, that was my graph. Jordan said we should look askance at performers who stand out among their already-superior peers. I showed an event where there were three performers whose WRs stood for decades. If these performances could be explained by altitude, new technique, increased participation, or whatever, then others would have quickly surpassed these records.
Should we be skeptical of Jesse Owens?
One can never determine, unfortunately, whether a given performance was PED-aided by comparing it to either peers or existing records.
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Should we be skeptical of Jesse Owens?
One can never determine, unfortunately, whether a given performance was PED-aided by comparing it to either peers or existing records.
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Hard to know in all cases. Sometimes, it's a change in technology or technique. Like, who was the first guy to skate in a classic ski race? Interestingly, in spite of Dick Fosbury revolutionizing high jumping with his over-backwards technique, you still don't have a huge jump in progression.
With swimming, you of course had changes in suit technology that made a huge impact - and where the ramifications where will be felt for a long time, but you've also had huge stroke changes. Like, Monty remembers when breastrokers couldn't put their eyebrow line below the water.
I don't what particular progression this is to know if it could be some sort of technological leap that caused those leaps.
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
With swimming, you of course had changes in suit technology that made a huge impact - and where the ramifications where will be felt for a long time, but you've also had huge stroke changes. Like, Monty remembers when breastrokers couldn't put their eyebrow line below the water.
I don't what particular progression this is to know if it could be some sort of technological leap that caused those leaps.
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp