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Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing
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so the company has put the "Chasing the Lion" film on youtube, so this is the first time most of us will have been able to watch it. but watching lionel test with alphamantis reminded me of a post i had made a couple of weeks ago regarding aero testing. basically the fact that, while testing, you tend to get sucked into this mentality of ''chipping away'' at your cda, often to the detriment of your overall performance. so at some point one of the testers comments "we've created a new athlete" and the funny part is - if i remember correctly - lionel doesn't even ride the same position he did because he had so much difficulty putting out race power in that position such that the aero gains were not worth it. just a good lesson on aero testing, really.

ETA -> I'm trying to find where I felt like his position had changed from the ''super aero'' to his current position and maybe am just making that part up. So if I am, it's NOT a good lesson in how not to fit during aero testing. But either way - enjoy the film if this is the first time you've seen it linked.


that segment is from roughly 9mins - 12mins into the film.



Last edited by: jkhayc: Dec 8, 17 10:33
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I think Jim and the Alphamantis crew do a great job of avoiding that one big pitfall of going to the tunnel, which is being put in an unsustainable position. Wind tunnels are for details like clothing, helmets, nutrition placement, hand and arm placement/angle, etc. They are not for setting fundamental positions. I've seen plenty of riders come out of a popular east coast tunnel in "the fastest position they had ever seen", only to be on my fit bike getting adjusted into a position they could actually ride a short time after. And contrary to popular wisdom here, the trained eyeball can be a very good tool.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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i came out of my first tunnel trip very aero. that position was ok for about 1.5-1.75hrs. at best. but it was a fast 1.5 - 1.75 hours! i then increased stack by ~12-15mm from tunnel position and could ride that for quite a while. would've liked to have found more reach eventually but the p5 - without hacks that seem very unsafe - was reach limited.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Good watch.
Thanks
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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(not to you, but general reply)

Look I'm a Lionel fan but did anyone find that really cheesy? The fake announcers were driving me crazy, at least hire Steve King or some other british (ish) dude.

Love the guy, but I was just kind of meh.

Cheers,
Maurice
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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there's a ''documentary'' on redbulltv about kienle from last year before kona that has the same odd voice over style. it's a very weird decision.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:

ETA -> I'm trying to find where I felt like his position had changed from the ''super aero'' to his current position and maybe am just making that part up.

He did change his position after this session.

This was filmed at the Milton velodrome. It was pretty hectic. The film crew wanted footage for the video, Garneau wanted to test suits and Lionel wanted to get aero.

It was funny testing him with the Camelback he wore at Kona
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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i didnt know his "back story" at all.

i have a new respect for the guy. i love to see when people turn their lives around like this.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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Does that HED 9 plus have more of an aero benefit that say what Cameron Wurf rode in Kona?
That 9 is super deep.. Say if a really light rider ie Mirinda was to ride the 9 would it blow her all over the road?
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [ErickBar] [ In reply to ]
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ErickBar wrote:
Does that HED 9 plus have more of an aero benefit that say what Cameron Wurf rode in Kona?
That 9 is super deep.. Say if a really light rider ie Mirinda was to ride the 9 would it blow her all over the road?

Any aero benefit was lost when he had to put out 350 watts for 20 minutes to get back in contention after the Hawi decent. Maybe next year he will spend some time working on his descending skills.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i didnt know his "back story" at all.

i have a new respect for the guy. i love to see when people turn their lives around like this.

Yeah for sure. He wins Kona one day, there's a movie in there somewhere.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
ErickBar wrote:
Does that HED 9 plus have more of an aero benefit that say what Cameron Wurf rode in Kona?
That 9 is super deep.. Say if a really light rider ie Mirinda was to ride the 9 would it blow her all over the road?


Any aero benefit was lost when he had to put out 350 watts for 20 minutes to get back in contention after the Hawi decent. Maybe next year he will spend some time working on his descending skills.

i dont know if i could maintain 350 watts for more than a minute! :-P

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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Has Lionel put his race season plans out? Would be fantastic if we could get 'The Rematch' at Oceanside!
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah for sure. He wins Kona one day, there's a movie in there somewhere.


They have just started work on the full-length feature documentary on Lionel.

I met with the Producers last week. They got the green-light recently to go ahead..

Regarding the velodrome testing - I was there for the session with Lionel at the Mattamy Velodrome near Toronto - now almost two years ago. There are some positives with this technique and some negatives.

I know that Lionel and his team learned a great deal from the session. As others have posted, not 100% of it was used going forward - but stuff like this when you get to this point is all experimental. It's all about marginal gains.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Any aero benefit was lost when he had to put out 350 watts for 20 minutes to get back in contention after the Hawi decent. Maybe next year he will spend some time working on his descending skills.


I don't want to second guess Lionel - after all he almost won the race . . . BUT, this is a limiter to this train-indoors all the time program that he seems to be on. He does not have the skill/confidence to descend at 60 -70 kmh and be buffeted by gusting winds. Spend more time on the bike, in those situations, and you have higher confidence. I'm sure it will be something that he works on this year.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
i came out of my first tunnel trip very aero. that position was ok for about 1.5-1.75hrs. at best. but it was a fast 1.5 - 1.75 hours! i then increased stack by ~12-15mm from tunnel position and could ride that for quite a while. would've liked to have found more reach eventually but the p5 - without hacks that seem very unsafe - was reach limited.

James, there are other options and other fit philosophies to allow an athlete to leave the tunnel aero *and* comfortable. I think the current model is one of reducing A at all costs and is the one you speak of. Focusing more on Cd gives a widely different fit outcome IMO.

My N=2 in comparison to your experience...

Eric

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
ErickBar wrote:
Does that HED 9 plus have more of an aero benefit that say what Cameron Wurf rode in Kona?
That 9 is super deep.. Say if a really light rider ie Mirinda was to ride the 9 would it blow her all over the road?


Any aero benefit was lost when he had to put out 350 watts for 20 minutes to get back in contention after the Hawi decent. Maybe next year he will spend some time working on his descending skills.
Huh? So when putting out 350 watt you don't have any benefits in an aero position?
Last edited by: IvarAlmere: Dec 20, 17 8:10
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
i came out of my first tunnel trip very aero. that position was ok for about 1.5-1.75hrs. at best. but it was a fast 1.5 - 1.75 hours! i then increased stack by ~12-15mm from tunnel position and could ride that for quite a while. would've liked to have found more reach eventually but the p5 - without hacks that seem very unsafe - was reach limited.


James, there are other options and other fit philosophies to allow an athlete to leave the tunnel aero *and* comfortable. I think the current model is one of reducing A at all costs and is the one you speak of. Focusing more on Cd gives a widely different fit outcome IMO.

My N=2 in comparison to your experience...

Eric

Sure there are, most good ones do this. Good luck convincing an athlete IN the wind tunnel conducting a session that reducing their drag is - at times - not the best answer to their problem. Since they're in there paying $500/hour specifically to do just that. Even the smartest, fastest, best-fit athletes will struggle with this idea that more aero is not always more better.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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IvarAlmere wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
ErickBar wrote:
Does that HED 9 plus have more of an aero benefit that say what Cameron Wurf rode in Kona?
That 9 is super deep.. Say if a really light rider ie Mirinda was to ride the 9 would it blow her all over the road?


Any aero benefit was lost when he had to put out 350 watts for 20 minutes to get back in contention after the Hawi decent. Maybe next year he will spend some time working on his descending skills.
Huh? So when putting out 350 watt you don't have any benefits in an aero position?

Wurf said he purposefully used a shallow wheel so he could descend hawi confidently. His competition needed to back off in the cross wind and put out a big effort to catch up afterwards.
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [IvarAlmere] [ In reply to ]
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IvarAlmere wrote:

Huh? So when putting out 350 watt you don't have any benefits in an aero position?


No, I think he's saying that poor bike handling skills and pacing skills were a bigger limiter to his overall performance than CdA optimization.
Last edited by: trail: Dec 20, 17 10:33
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i didnt know his "back story" at all.


Yeah, he's really candid, which is refreshing. Here's another interview about it if you're interested.



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Last edited by: domingjm: Dec 20, 17 14:41
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious where the interview can be found?
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:
damon.lebeouf wrote:
i didnt know his "back story" at all.


Yeah, he's really candid, which is refreshing. Here's another interview about it if you're interested.


Thanks for posting that. Man what a great story.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
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Re: Chasing the Lion + Aero Testing [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I regularly show up at Computrainer rides when an athlete I'm working with is 2-3 hours in. What ever the coach has them doing - that does not really matter. I want to see how they are riding under stress.

When I compare my initial fits with the stressed fits we generally end up increasing stack by about 10 - 15 mm. If we had not raised the hands in the initial fit we usually end up doing that to help brace/lock in the athlete.

I have not done it but maybe a good protocol would be to have the athlete show up at the tunnel after riding race pace a few hours.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
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