Ummm, i didn't watch the broadcast but, given that Sanders swam 1:01:10, i would not think he would really need a "domestique" to swim a 1:01.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If this is true, then Lionel burned too many swim matches....

It's Chrabot not Charbot

Matt Lieto commented on it during the swim from his position in the boat. He said early on Charbot was looking back to make sure Sanders was still behind him.

Well, it's just a bummer, I would have thought Lionel could have swum faster drafting off Chabrot. Perhaps Lionel will log on and provide some context for us, as he's done that several times over the past year or so.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

If you had watched it, it was pretty obvious.

I assume that it's technically against the rules to be paced even in the swim, impossible to enforce though, so kudos to the public shaming on the broadcast.

There was lots of talk in "THE Kona Thread" day of the race

In 2012 Chrabot was the first. American and 7th overall out of the water at the San Diego Olympic selection event. A 1:01 swim does not correlate with that.

What is making him humpback?

camelback...legit

It was pretty obvious during the broadcast. I counted three instances of Chrabot rotating to look for Sanders even though I probably only watched half of the swim. I've literally never seen that before in a race.

My $0.02 that's cheating.

"My $0.02 that's cheating. "

Which rule was broken?

Dan said it best in The Offcial Kona Thread:

we've talked about this before, and i have always adhered to the slowman doctrine: "assistance" is not within the rules if it is rendered by an athlete who has abandoned or subordinated his own race ambition, and whose ambition is now to aid another. to me, that would be the case if matt is actually, obviously, pacing lionel. it should be clear based on past performance what matt is capable of.

the difference between potts and frodeno on one hand, and chrabot and sanders on the other, is that neither potts nor frodeno have abandoned their own race ambition.

is it always easy to tell when somebody has abandoned his race ambition? no. but it's not always easy to tell when somebody's doping either. because we can't know every instance of a failure to race by the rules that doesn't mean we should shy from enforcing a rule when it is broken.

the above is my view when it's ironman racing, which is a very clearly individual sport. in ITU racing, if you want to say that it's okay for that style of racing to incorporate team elements, fine. that's up to the ITU. but in ironman racing, this is a different format, a different history, a different culture. it has always been a fiercely individual sport. every man or woman on his own. the slowman doctrine holds say for ironman racing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I hear and understand you, but was there any rule in the Ironman rule book which was broken?

Arguably, it could be against the USAT rule prohibiting pacing i.e. outside assistance.

I am not so sure, I think it would fall under inside assistance.

"I am not so sure, I think it would fall under inside assistance."

it isn't, nor has it ever, been outside assistance. it has always been unauthorized assistance.

3.4.d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.

that's pretty clear, it seems to me. if anybody wants to know whether a rule has been broken and what the rule is, there it is.

i don't mind if ironman and/or USAT decides this is legal. it just needs to be addressed by both USAT and ironman: they need to say it's legal or it's not and if it's not they need to stick to that. this isn't new. i have observed a number of occasions over the years, in the pro field, where in my opinion assistance like this in the swim or the bike has been given. this occasion here is probably the most obvious i've ever seen but certainly not the first.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thank you for the clarification. I agree it is not the first time as there have been many cases of pro-men waiting and pacing their pro-women partners before. Heck the way the rule is written, it could be argued that Chrissy got unauthorized assistance when her competitor gave her a CO2 cartridge to fix a flat. I also agree that USAT/Ironman need to decide what they want and stick to their own rule.

If you're going to cheat, you better win.

Not that he cares, but Lionel lost me as a fan on Saturday. I have been following and rooting for him this season, but I found this move to be pretty weak. If you can't hang, then get beaten or get better so you can hang with the big kids.

He also now doesn't know how much better he needs to get. "Wow, Potts and Frodo beat me out of the water by 13 minutes. Next year if I close that gap to 7 minutes, I'll have a chance to ride/run them down". What is he going to learn about swimming in Kona? That his pacer took a bad line? That his pacer went to fast and he burned too many matches?

---

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

So when Chrissie got the CO2 that was a violation or was this rule after that?

First of all, of course he paced him, a moron could see that.


Secondly is it against the rules, not any that I can find. Does it go against fair play and the nature of the sport, each has to decide that for themselves.


Thirdly, those of you commenting on the time, keep in mind that the swim was 3 minutes slow for the pointy end pros, probably 4 at the hour range. So that 1;01 is really like a 57 on a normal Kona swim, right about where many though he would be. When swims get funky, always go back and look at the top guys, and their difference to others to keep things in context.


And Lastly, I don't think it came up here, but I mentioned to dan on the phone while this was going on that I though Matt might also pace him on the bike for awhile. For those of you that don't know Matt, he is one of the best bikers in ITU, often breaking away solo for periods of time, but always trying to force breaks. I know Lionel is a monster on the bike too and pushes some big wattage, but for sure Matt could be his pacer for 50, 60, maybe even 70 miles if it was his only goal on the day.


So was anyone in the vicinity when they got passed by Lionel, and did you see Matt out in front(legal distance of course)? If pacing in the swim was within the letter of the rules, then I see no problem with this either. If you are Lionel and you are paying a guy to already break water for you, why not keep it going into the wind as long as possible too?


In the end this is going to force WTC's stand on this type of thing. I believe they have already made a rule that a man may not drop back and abandon his race for a woman, so along with gay marriage I guess there needs to be equality here too. But keep in mind that this one is a lot more tricky to figure out, man and woman is easy, just don't do it. But this need a far larger burden of proof. In this case, there is no doubt it was met, but for example, back when Macca rallied all the troops on the bike to gap Crowie, and all pretty much equal in cycling abilities, would that be not ok too??


I think in some instances this is why many rules just don't get made ahead of time, too many loop holes and enforcing issues. But with ironman it is usually they just have not thought about these scenarios ahead of time, and once they happen, then try and figure out what to do after the fact. How crazy would it have been if it played out exactly like I postured it could have, and Lionel won the race. Then the egg all over their face would be visible to the whole world, instead of a few eyeballs here on ST that read this stuff, or at least my stuff.. (-;

"So when Chrissie got the CO2 that was a violation or was this rule after that?"

this technically broke the rule. but i would not have given a penalty for that. the sportsmanship exception. that's slowman rule, sub-paragraph 1, exception 3.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have definitely given flat repair supplies to other athletes during races. Never thought of this as cheating, but I'll reference the "Slowman sportsmanship exception" if I ever get busted.

---

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Pacing on the bike would have been prohibited. On our race packet, there was explicit instruction - "TEAM CYCLING OR RUNNING IS PROHIBITED AND WILL RESULT IN DISQUALIFICATION."

I believe this may have been tied to accusations from last year's race that Ronnie Schildknecht and another BMC/UPlace athlete dropped back to protect and pace Bart Aernouts. Or it may always have been there. I am not sure.

We will see if next year they add "swimming" to that list as well...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp