Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc...

Nov 15, 14 21:09

Post #1 of 114 (18584 views)

I went to the bike store today to test ride for a new road bike. My brother in law is the owner and I get to do what every I want!!!!

So, I set up a nice 2014 Cerv�lo S3 with keo pedals Vs Cerv�lo R3 with keo pedals.

both are ultegra, both have almost the same parts but different wheels. I made sure to put the same pressure on both set of wheels.

I started a fun game of 5X3-4min riding on each bike....alternating one bike and the other one. And with each try, it was a HUGE difference in comfort as the R3 take the win by a major margin compare to the S3. I plain and simple find the S3 unpleasant to ride. And that was a big desapointement as I really ''want'' a S3...I love the look, the shape...I want one...but it isn't a comfy ride.

I then, decided to swtich wheelset from one bike to the other to eliminate the variable...and same gain, the R3 is plain and simple a much comfier bike and damp the virbration of the road... it s a night and day feeling for me.

it leaves me to wonder when I hear Jackmoot and Tom A talk about the tire, wheel and pressure, components been the big difference. Are those guys not able to feel those difference? while I can play all day with different wheel and tire pressure.... it dosnt hide the frame characteristic.

I need a blind test now!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 14 21:34

Post #2 of 114 (18568 views)

It doesn't make sense to me how you could feel a huge difference in the frames when the reported differences between them are so small.

Last edited by: Nick B: Nov 15, 14 21:34

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 14 21:36

Post #3 of 114 (18565 views)

can you show me a report? I m pretty sure there is no such analysis yet and what cervelo as done so far is confidential.

but perhaps I m wrong and missed on good data???

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 14 22:23

Post #4 of 114 (18538 views)

jonnyo wrote:

I need a blind test now!!!

This.

The one hones bike test tour made was a blind test and pro riders could not distinguish an old steel bike from a modern carbon bike.

I ride a cervelo R3 and a Soloist and could distinguish them, but only because the R3 is a superlight build with wider handlebars, while the Soloist is a cheaper build with heavier wheels and a narrow handlebar.

Genereally on slowtwitch minor details are blown way out of proportion, we can easily adjust to handlebar with, position changes, crank length changes without any loss in power and efficiency. And frame stiffness or comfort is pretty meaningless if you are not a world class sprinter.

The one thing I can feel though is, that for off season training I bought 25mm 4 seasons tires, that I run at 7 bar instead of my normal 8. This adds a little bit of comfort and a huge amount of security.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [adal] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 14 23:20

Post #5 of 114 (18515 views)

adal wrote:

jonnyo wrote:

I need a blind test now!!!

This.

The one hones bike test tour made was a blind test and pro riders could not distinguish an old steel bike from a modern carbon bike.

I ride a cervelo R3 and a Soloist and could distinguish them, but only because the R3 is a superlight build with wider handlebars, while the Soloist is a cheaper build with heavier wheels and a narrow handlebar.

Genereally on slowtwitch minor details are blown way out of proportion, we can easily adjust to handlebar with, position changes, crank length changes without any loss in power and efficiency. And frame stiffness or comfort is pretty meaningless if you are not a world class sprinter.

The one thing I can feel though is, that for off season training I bought 25mm 4 seasons tires, that I run at 7 bar instead of my normal 8. This adds a little bit of comfort and a huge amount of security.

I don't follow you on that one. But what I see with comfort is, some people will never complain about it or notice difference....and some will clearly see it. While I would love a blind test.... it really seems like it would be a easy one in this case. And believe me, I m not happy...I really wish I would love the s3....that s the one I want....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 1:27

Post #6 of 114 (18483 views)

I know frame design makes a difference. I have owned two titanium road bikes. My two titanium bikes are similar in design (sort of) to the R3 vs S3. One had round old school tubes and the other had a beefy aero down tube. The bike with the thin diameter tubing was the most comfortable road bike I have owned. The one with the aero down tube has the harshest bike I have owned. Same material different design different level of comfort. I also had owned a S3 and found it harsh like my Ti aero bike.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 3:29

Post #7 of 114 (18415 views)

Assuming it is real, would be interesting to know how much of the difference in perceived comfort derives from the seatpost. The 27.2 mm diameter seatpost of the R3 could well provide a fair bit more cantilevered flex than the aero post of the S3. I note that on the S5 Cervelo have gone to a one position clamp which is further forward, apparently in part to increase the cantilevering and hence flex of the saddle rails.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 4:36

Post #8 of 114 (18389 views)

Same thing here...... I rode them back to back. I wanted the S3, but I bought the R3. I actually preferred the SRAM rival shifting over the Ultegra...... But then again I am " the Ass"

J

You can't fix stupid ..

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:02

Post #9 of 114 (18374 views)

They had different wheels on them. Test Invalid.
Try again

Test not blinded, still invalid!

And yes, I really can not feel those differences. I've done this test with S5 vs R3, same wheels and tires.

feels the same to me

jonnyo wrote:

I went to the bike store today to test ride for a new road bike. My brother in law is the owner and I get to do what every I want!!!!

So, I set up a nice 2014 Cerv�lo S3 with keo pedals Vs Cerv�lo R3 with keo pedals.

both are ultegra, both have almost the same parts but different wheels. I made sure to put the same pressure on both set of wheels.

I started a fun game of 5X3-4min riding on each bike....alternating one bike and the other one. And with each try, it was a HUGE difference in comfort as the R3 take the win by a major margin compare to the S3. I plain and simple find the S3 unpleasant to ride. And that was a big desapointement as I really ''want'' a S3...I love the look, the shape...I want one...but it isn't a comfy ride.

I then, decided to swtich wheelset from one bike to the other to eliminate the variable...and same gain, the R3 is plain and simple a much comfier bike and damp the virbration of the road... it s a night and day feeling for me.

it leaves me to wonder when I hear Jackmoot and Tom A talk about the tire, wheel and pressure, components been the big difference. Are those guys not able to feel those difference? while I can play all day with different wheel and tire pressure.... it dosnt hide the frame characteristic.

I need a blind test now!!!

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:19

Post #10 of 114 (18363 views)

I think your just lacking that sence, not even a close call...

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:24

Post #11 of 114 (18359 views)

jonnyo wrote:

I think your just lacking that sence, not even a close call...

never forget!
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...perception_4571.html

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:34

Post #12 of 114 (18346 views)

I've ridden an S5, CR1 and an AR4 quite extensively and other than minor details (cockpit, saddle choice, etc) I can hardly tell a difference in the frame. Now, between my P5 and my older P3 I can tell a noticeable difference.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:43

Post #13 of 114 (18340 views)

I wish there would be a link to the results as he share opinions but no data results.

Believe me, this is " a cry for help" as I want to buy the s3.... I want to believe you. I need to come up with my own blind test!!!

How are blind test done?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:45

Post #14 of 114 (18337 views)

P5 been less harsh than old p3 right? That's what I noticed.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:46

Post #15 of 114 (18334 views)

Significantly "smoother" for sure.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 5:58

Post #16 of 114 (18318 views)

put fabric over the frames so you can't see them, usually.

jonnyo wrote:

I wish there would be a link to the results as he share opinions but no data results.

Believe me, this is " a cry for help" as I want to buy the s3.... I want to believe you. I need to come up with my own blind test!!!

How are blind test done?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [duncan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:07

Post #17 of 114 (18305 views)

Assuming it is real, would be interesting to know how much of the difference in perceived comfort derives from the seatpost. The 27.2 mm diameter seatpost of the R3 could well provide a fair bit more cantilevered flex than the aero post of the S3.

I'm not expert, but this is something I have noticed as well - my regular ride is an R3, but i've spent a decent amount of time on the S5(older version), and on little post-wrenching spins on my wife's S2 and now new S3, testing out the bike to make sure it's good to go before road races for her.

When I'm riding my R3 and I am looking down at the seat post, I can see it flexing minimally both from my own weight moments on the bike, and also when going over rough pavement.

That same movement on all Cervelo S-series bikes with their aero seat-posts, is zero!

All other things being kept the same (wheels, tires, psi, saddles etc . .), this does seem to be a key difference between the R and S series bikes in the Cervelo line. That, "shock dampening" that the round carbon seat-post offers could be the secret sauce to the R bikes being described as, "more comfortable".

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Last edited by: Fleck: Nov 16, 14 7:30

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:08

Post #18 of 114 (18302 views)

What size frame and how big/heavy are you?

I am a light female and ride small frames and I notice the differences in a big way that others on ST say I shouldn't notice.

I really think the lighter you are and the smaller the frame, the more pronounced the differences become.

Sure, I can take a frame that I find to be a harsh ride and put box rims and wide cushy tires at low pressure on and it will make the ride more comfortable - but that kind of defeats the purpose of using that frame.

My n=1, plus comparing notes with other women, is that these ride quality differences do become more significant with smaller frames and lighter riders. In talking with women who have tried both frames, they prefer the R series to the S series.

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:10

Post #19 of 114 (18299 views)

That reminds me of another thing that is important to keep constant, when comparing - saddle.

Some saddles flex a lot, some are very stiff.
I've always used the very thin, lightweight, selle italia saddles on my road bike, which flex a lot more than the Fizik saddles Cervelos come with sometimes.

Maybe that helps me not notice!

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [themadcyclist] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:14

Post #20 of 114 (18296 views)

when fit, I m in the 145-150lbs. my feeling is the same as you, the bigger you are, the less people seems to notice those issue.

Blind test will happen next week. i m curious and want some more data on this

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [themadcyclist] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:30

Post #21 of 114 (18270 views)

In talking with women who have tried both frames, they prefer the R series to the S series.

Yes . . . but . .

My wife races Pro 1/2 locally and nationally here in Canada. The differences with the women's racing, other than in the larger UCI level race fields, which she's only exposed to ounce a year at the GP Gatineau, is the women's race fields are smaller. Less opportunity to hide in the bunch. There can be lot of solo, or 2-3 rider bridging when it starts to break up. Also great opportunities for solo attacks/break-aways and wins. In fact, solo break-aways this year initiated by my wife lead to 2 race wins and 2 podium places for her!

Point being, if I understand the numbers, in these situations, aerodynamics are more important, than comfort/lightness. That's why she races on a S3(new) and with a wheel-set that's as aero as is reasonable for the conditions.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [themadcyclist] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:39

Post #22 of 114 (18257 views)

Or you can put 808s and good race tires and tubes on it at proper pressures.

100lbs riders should be running like 80psi, most of them run over 100.

themadcyclist wrote:

Sure, I can take a frame that I find to be a harsh ride and put box rims and wide cushy tires at low pressure on and it will make the ride more comfortable - but that kind of defeats the purpose of using that frame.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 6:52

Post #23 of 114 (18244 views)

100lbs riders should be running like 80psi, most of them run over 100.

I still see/watch many triathletes and road cyclists, putting insane amounts of psi in their tires! I guess they have iron-crotches or backs! :)

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [Nick B] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 7:05

Post #24 of 114 (18233 views)

Nick B wrote:

It doesn't make sense to me how you could feel a huge difference in the frames when the reported differences between them are so small.

I'm pretty sure a pretty smart person already answered this.....

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...perception_4571.html

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Re: Cervelo R3 Vs S3 , comfort, frame difference etc... [duncan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 16, 14 7:19

Post #25 of 114 (18216 views)

duncan wrote:

Assuming it is real, would be interesting to know how much of the difference in perceived comfort derives from the seatpost. The 27.2 mm diameter seatpost of the R3 could well provide a fair bit more cantilevered flex than the aero post of the S3. I note that on the S5 Cervelo have gone to a one position clamp which is further forward, apparently in part to increase the cantilevering and hence flex of the saddle rails.

Which brings up a good point...what saddle is on each and where is it clamped on the rails?

If you REALLY want the S3, just drop the pressure in the rear tire by 5psi and be happy :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 16, 14 7:20

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