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Post deleted by MariaMartinez
Last edited by: MariaMartinez: Apr 29, 17 16:22
Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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Chain friction is proportional to link articulation angle and link articulation rate, among other things, so it's true that the larger the jockey wheels, the lower the friction since each link doesn't have to bend as much when going around them. Same concept when the chain is going around a larger cog vs the 11T cog.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [RichardL] [ In reply to ]
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RichardL wrote:
Chain friction is proportional to link articulation angle and link articulation rate, among other things, so it's true that the larger the jockey wheels, the lower the friction since each link doesn't have to bend as much when going around them. Same concept when the chain is going around a larger cog vs the 11T cog.

Give her some credit. Everything you mention is in the video she posted.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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Nothing new, plenty products out there to suck in money from cashed up buyers.
Worry more about the tyre pressures you run.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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I think the claims are dubious. There is just not much there in pulley wheels. Certainly not enough to justify the price tag.

I didn't watch the video. I've seen this guy talk about other things before. Most of what I've seen is blatantly a rip off of what other people have said or just completely wrong.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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So you're telling me manufacturers might sell me something with inflated claims???

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I went to find the r-ace device on indigogo and cannot locate it, has anyone else found it?
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Have no idea what you are referring too

Mike Alexander wrote:
I went to find the r-ace device on indigogo and cannot locate it, has anyone else found it?



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Have no idea what you are referring too

Mike Alexander wrote:
I went to find the r-ace device on indigogo and cannot locate it, has anyone else found it?

The derailleur that he mentions in the video...large jockey wheels with fewer teeth.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry english is not my native language. So just to be clear as i am getting sort of mixed signals from your post.

Are you saying that the guy in the video, is not really doing his homework, and actually dont know what he is talking about?

Disclaimer: I have made a living in bike shops for more than 2 decades, so according to most people on this forum am not at all trust worthy
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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Wow I can't believe I wasted 10 minutes listening to this guy pontificate (well I did fast forward through some of it). A much more compelling argument would be to do some actual testing. How about setting up a crank-based power meter and a PowerTap and seeing if you can measure the difference in frictional losses?

I enjoy hearing about people's attempts to quantify differences in thing like CdA and Crr. This type of blathering, not so much.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Gotcha, FWIW as soon I see this guy pop up I immediately just close the window. Waste of time.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Gotcha, FWIW as soon I see this guy pop up I immediately just close the window. Waste of time.

Some interesting data....but it is really hard to watch. He talks so fast, I get anxiety from it.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Henrik Noerskov] [ In reply to ]
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I'm saying the guy in the video is not worth wasting your time on. He posts a lot in the Zwift forums apparently. I guess he's good at self promotion, but the couple of things I've actually managed to watch have been full of bad information.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah - the video where he "busts" the myth of the FTP test showed that he really didn't know what FTP meant.

___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Then my english was not that bad. I just got a bit confused since you actually agreed with the douche bag, that the OSPW system did not work.

I am probably a bit coloured since i live a 30 min. drive from Ceramicspeed headquarters. But i really really love them. Where else do you get 4-6 year warranty on bearings that are actually running really smooth. I am a believer untill proven otherwise. Ignorant or not.

Disclaimer: I have made a living in bike shops for more than 2 decades, so according to most people on this forum am not at all trust worthy
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [MariaMartinez] [ In reply to ]
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Maria Martinez,

Thank you for bringing this video to the attention of CeramicSpeed. The video is actually somewhat shocking. It is full of incorrect statements and supplies no evidence of actual testing.

Jason Smith, founder of Friction Facts and now full time innovator and tinkerer within CeramicSpeed, is in the process of analyzing the video and its contents. You can expect a full in-depth response from Jason shortly after the weekend.

Please stay tuned.

Cheers,
BP

Chief Marketing Officer,
CeramicSpeed
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [BPowell_CS] [ In reply to ]
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BPowell_CS wrote:
Maria Martinez,

Thank you for bringing this video to the attention of CeramicSpeed. The video is actually somewhat shocking. It is full of incorrect statements and supplies no evidence of actual testing.

Jason Smith, founder of Friction Facts and now full time innovator and tinkerer within CeramicSpeed, is in the process of analyzing the video and its contents. You can expect a full in-depth response from Jason shortly after the weekend.

Please stay tuned.

Cheers,
BP

You do know you are replying to the person who is likely the creator of the video correct? Check out the post history, all links to the same youtube channel.


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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Henrik Noerskov] [ In reply to ]
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Henrik Noerskov wrote:
Then my english was not that bad. I just got a bit confused since you actually agreed with the douche bag, that the OSPW system did not work.

The guy in the video didn't say they didn't work. He concluded they'd save about 1.2W vs. Dura-Ace 11/11. Granted his methodology to derive that number was a lot of hand-waving at old Friction Facts data. CeramicSpeed used to claim a mininum 2.4W savings. But now on their SRAM version they claim 1.6W (presumably vs. SRAM Red, but they don't make that clear). There are no absolute Wattage savings listed on the Shimano version. And Ceramic Speed doesn't provide error bars on their graphs. Or specify at what power the 1.6W occur. I'm all for slamming the guy in the video, but CeramicSpeed isn't much better at explaining their numbers, in my opinion. And I consider it a shame that Friction Facts is no longer independent. I get it. I'd probably have cashed in too. Still a shame.

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I am probably a bit coloured since i live a 30 min. drive from Ceramicspeed headquarters. But i really really love them. Where else do you get 4-6 year warranty on bearings that are actually running really smooth. I am a believer untill proven otherwise. Ignorant or not.

I hear you. But a set of new Dura Ace pulleys costs $30. Ceramic Speed pulleys cost $270. Assuming annual replacement of DA pulleys, for that $270 you could buy 9 years of DA pulleys, which puts you several years past the Ceramic Speed warranty. And Dura Ace pulleys are - like all things Dura Ace - pretty darned good and smooth themselves. I'm not slamming you....I pimp out my bike sometimes with things that have no proven cost-performance benefit. But, so far, I've resisted the allure of the pulley upgrade.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Henrik Noerskov] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, I get the confusion. I was agreeing with the original poster that claims are often inflated and it is frustrating. I also said I didn't watch the video, but yeah, I was not clear.

I have no issue with Ceramic Speed. They've done a great job of marketing their products. I have no experience with them ($$$) do I can't speak for quality. They have a lot of stuff out there so if it was bad I'm sure we'd here about it.

I always find it interesting that people will spend $5-600 on pulleys that might get a watt, or generously, two, but we have still have to educate people on getting aerodynamic testing. I always joke that we need to put people's results on a ceramic coated carbon fiber USB so they have something to show their friends. :)


Henrik Noerskov wrote:
Then my english was not that bad. I just got a bit confused since you actually agreed with the douche bag, that the OSPW system did not work.

I am probably a bit coloured since i live a 30 min. drive from Ceramicspeed headquarters. But i really really love them. Where else do you get 4-6 year warranty on bearings that are actually running really smooth. I am a believer untill proven otherwise. Ignorant or not.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [IKnowEverything] [ In reply to ]
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Yep that's where I first learned about this guy. My eyes rolled back so hard I about did a backflip out of my chair.


IKnowEverything wrote:
Yeah - the video where he "busts" the myth of the FTP test showed that he really didn't know what FTP meant.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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haha! Nice catch.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Agree it is a shame there is no more independent friction testing.However i believe that a bit of the problem with testing is as you say yourself, that it is hard to see and relate to what is actually being tested. My educated guess but still guess would be that the differense between OSPW and Dura ace pulleys would be somewhere between 1 and 5 watts depending on the chain you are running. Ceramicspeeds bearings are really good but the real trick to friction saving in OSPW lies in the chainfriction. With the bigger pulleys the chain will have to bend less.

So with a perfect chain like Premier, ICE, Ceramicspeeds own UFO or something similar. I think the differense OSPW makes would be miniscule like 1 watt. Normal well kept chain you would be at something like the original claim of 2.4 watts. Shitty chain you would be way higher. And believe you me. There is athletes out there racing shitty chains. All numbers above are pure guesses but i am pretty sure the trend in the numbers are correct. I miss Frictionfacts as well to get some actual numbers. But how would they make a living selling tests of how many watts you save with a 500$ pulleywheel system if you dont wanna change a 20$ chain and buy some decent lube.

I dont think Ceramicspeeds claim of full bike savings of 10-16 are that far of for a normal standard wellkept bike, for an unserviced bike you could save way more than that. With my own TT bike that does not see much action they would be lucky if they could find 3 watts. High quality SKF bearings with no bearing shields and a little light grease in BB and Wheels, old Berner 13-15 cage out back oiled, and a home breewed chain. Not much friction there to remove. But does that mean they are not allowed to claim more than 3 watts?

trail wrote:
The guy in the video didn't say they didn't work. He concluded they'd save about 1.2W vs. Dura-Ace 11/11. Granted his methodology to derive that number was a lot of hand-waving at old Friction Facts data. CeramicSpeed used to claim a mininum 2.4W savings. But now on their SRAM version[/url] they claim 1.6W (presumably vs. SRAM Red, but they don't make that clear). There are no absolute Wattage savings listed on the Shimano version[/url]. And Ceramic Speed doesn't provide error bars on their graphs. Or specify at what power the 1.6W occur. I'm all for slamming the guy in the video, but CeramicSpeed isn't much better at explaining their numbers, in my opinion. And I consider it a shame that Friction Facts is no longer independent. I get it. I'd probably have cashed in too. Still a shame.[/quote]

I suppose prices wary around the globe in my part of northern europe i do not get DA pulleys for any where near 30$. In Denmark msrp for CS pulleys to DA pulleys is 4 times more. But i do to some agree with you a lot of the way.

Do not buy CS stuff because it is cost effecient cause it is not, it is actually really expensive.
Do not buy CS stuff because it is the cheapest way of finding speed on your bike. There is probably other places to find more speed per $.

However i do not find Ceramicspeed overly expensive just expensive. And there is definately a placebo effect in feeling the smoothness of an optimesed drive train. You can actually see athletes, pros and amateuers alike, look just like a kid at Christmas when they pick up a tuned bike made fully race ready. And that trust in your gear will make a differense on raceday. especially in long course tri where you have severel hours to wonder if your bike is running smoothly.

Placebo effect is an effect and probably one of the most effective ones

trail wrote:
I hear you. But a set of new Dura Ace pulleys costs $30. Ceramic Speed pulleys cost $270. Assuming annual replacement of DA pulleys, for that $270 you could buy 9 years of DA pulleys, which puts you several years past the Ceramic Speed warranty. And Dura Ace pulleys are - like all things Dura Ace - pretty darned good and smooth themselves. I'm not slamming you....I pimp out my bike sometimes with things that have no proven cost-performance benefit. But, so far, I've resisted the allure of the pulley upgrade.[/quote]
Disclaimer: I have made a living in bike shops for more than 2 decades, so according to most people on this forum am not at all trust worthy
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [Henrik Noerskov] [ In reply to ]
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I have deleted the original question because it is being misinterpreted. My question is does anyone have any data they can share on CS or ceramics in general regardless of their opinion for or against. I realise its a complicated topic but the field seems very muddy right now. Is there any lab or test center doing such tests and can these be downloaded? thanks.
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Re: CeremicSpeed oversize pulley : Feeling annoyed [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
Wow I can't believe I wasted 10 minutes listening to this guy pontificate (well I did fast forward through some of it). A much more compelling argument would be to do some actual testing. How about setting up a crank-based power meter and a PowerTap and seeing if you can measure the difference in frictional losses? .

Been there, done that. I was comparing chainring/cog sizes, though.
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