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Cancellation in exchange for Social Push
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i had a GREAT time with you all yesterday in the 3 or so threads that focused on why you enter, why you don't enter, and what causes you to enter early. i want to ask about something i thought about last night and this morning. it's based on this:

1. a lot of you it seems will enter a race in large part because you're friends are racing it.
2. all of you want the ability to cancel if you get injured or whatever.
3. most of you have a pretty tight budget for what you'll spend on a race.

so... how do you keep the price low? and allow for cancellations? here is what i've come up with, as one option, which may be totally shitty, but i thought i'd throw it out and see if there's anything to it...

1. if you enter early, you are offered a full cancellation option, meaning, a full refund minus the cost of the registration charge that the RD would have to eat (5 percent let us say).

2. but to qualify for it, you must post, to social media, telling folks you're entering, and inviting them to enter with a link to the event.

if you want to trigger the cancellation clause, and get your refund, you must post a link that shows your social outreach, and it must be timely, as in, within 72 hours of the time you entered.

the idea here is:

1. your social outreach offsets the financial risk of the cancellation policy.
2. this partly solves the question of how friends know friends are racing what races.
3. this keeps the race from escalating its fees as the race approaches, because only the early adopters get to invoke the cancellation policy. (late enterers don't pay more, but they don't get to cancel).

tell my why my idea is full of shit.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's a great solution
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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That idea is doable, I especially #3, RDs might not have the resources to manage lots of moving pieces to verify who's posting link validation and withdrawals.

What I see from your idea is presented in marketing the race similar to recent Ironman changes: 1. Tri club early entry option, 2. Races that sell out (RDs can sell every spot and still profit) vs trying to sell 15,000 spots, 3. Offer insurance in the price, I would pay 1 price to have a 75%!refund i.e. Or even better have options to defer i.e. IM Tahoe.

Heck I'm sure Groupon would generate entries for local races.

You had mentioned in another post the Grass Rootsy feel that made Wildflower awesome, it's about the athletes experience, this is why some races sell out the day registration opens each year for 10 yrs in a row and others fall by the wayside.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Does ST count as social media?

I'm guessing a fair number of people don't do much with the other forms.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Good thoughts here Dan. I'll play devil's advocate!

There is not really any accountability on the athletes part using this idea. Take pro triathletes for example. There are always a list of names that are supposed to appear on the starting list for a race, but rarely do all of them show up. Why? Because they don't pay for entry... Maybe they got injured; or decided the race was too competitive to make money; or did not feel like the are peaking so they signed up for a race the following week. And that is great for the pros because it does not affect the race's ability to profit.

If the age grouper athlete could sign up for any race and cancel (within a certain time prior to race day I would assume) with just a $5-10 penalty, then there is really no repercussion for cancellation. Maybe they just couldn't get in the training they wanted to, or something else better came up that weekend.

I am not saying that many athletes would do this, but if a fair number of them did for a specific race, could it cripple the race?

I would lean toward a partial refund myself. Maybe 75-80% to offset some of the risk that comes with late cancellations.

Disclaimer - I am a RD for a small (<100 people) fundraising 5k in my area from which I do not collect profit, but have a little (a very little) amount of insight into how races work.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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 And for folks that don't do social media?
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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2. but to qualify for it, you must post, to social media, telling folks you're entering, and inviting them to enter with a link to the event.

You know I suggested that to the CEO of a race production company when they were relaunching their business 3-5 years ago. I don't think anything came of it.

The problems with it are you need someone internal to track the posts. Most race production companies don't have the staff.

The staff is pulling double or triple duty bc they have a race that weekend setting up transitions, driving a vehicle around marking the course, entering people & bib #'s in the computer system, coordinating onsite the day before and again race morning with safety personnel, making sure coolers are clean, filling the coolers, positioning them to be placed out on the course race morning, making sure aid stations are stocked, trying to find the zip ties that someone dropped etc (true story ask me how I know), tracking down park personnel. During the week they are on the phone with various agencies pulling permits or talking about site planning or designing routes or talking to potential partners, or answering the 100's of dumb email questions people ask weeks before a race ask such as "what color is my swim cap going to be?" - true story btw. (FFS people think before emailing your RD a question(s), seriously)

Sure your race isn't for another 6-8 weeks but the race production company may have 6-20 races they put on and then they time another 6-40 races per year which involves setting out the boxes, the mats, setting up the finish/start lines etc.

Sure a huge race production company like wtc has a lot of staff/volunteers and this is easier. But a local company with 1-3 owners/employees and maybe a total set up staff of 5 people and now you're asking them to spend a few hours tracking down social media stuff.

They've got to go to twitter/Instagram/FB and type in someone's name into each platform and see what they've done. 3-5 minutes per person right there.

let's say you've got a 400 person race and I'd bet industry cx rates are at least 5-10% now you're spending 2-3 hours tracking down social media stuff. If I was an RD I'd rather roll your entry fee for a nominal admin fee to another race and be done with it. Yet even that costs me more time than the average triathlete thinks it does.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 18 9:08
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan
I like your idea.
But ,I am not so sure you are adresseing the main problem in your questions . For many people its not the problem to pay the race fee once , the problem is when you want to do 7-10 local races a year fees start to add up.
so rather than just thinking about one race i tihink we should be thinking how do we make people race more frequently and get entry fees down for those that race more frequently.
for instance buy an x amount of races early in one go ( not sure what the number should be maybe 5 maybe 7 maybe 10) that are usat ( or whatever federation) santcioned races ( or active races or whatever ) in one go and get 33% percent off .
those people usally dont want a t shirt as they have more than they could possibly wear.
this way we would entice people to race more and races would get more people.

those days what i see is that there is too many people that either do local races OR one or 2 branded races a year and in a way this hurts both groups, especially now that even a lot of the branded races dont sell out .
Personally i think a solution to that would be important and i think it would help to keep people longer in the sport.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Sure your race isn't for another 6-8 weeks but the race production company may have 6-20 races they put on and then they time another 6-40 races per year which involves setting out the boxes, the mats, setting up the finish/start lines etc.

Sure a huge race production company like wtc has a lot of staff/volunteers and this is easier. But a local company with 1-3 owners/employees and maybe a total set up staff of 5 people and now you're asking them to spend a few hours tracking down social media stuff. //

If you are putting on 6 to 40 races a year then you are not a small company to being with. And early entry should mean just that, early and not 6 weeks out. I'm thinking this is in the one year to 4/5/6 month period, so a long ways out from any last month crunch time for the producers. So if you have to post up 72 hours within that early entry, there should be plenty of people with nothing really to do to check on this for that 3 day window.


And so what if people just drop out for whatever reason, they pay the active fee and a small % to cover admin fees. But they already did the social media blog and that can't be taken back and the RD got the benefit of that marketing, which could mean the difference between success and failure..
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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1. I wouldn't offer the full 100% refund. 90% is sufficient to get me to sign up, knowing I can get most of my costs back if something stupid happens. The RD HAS to have some costs involved in any cancellation, hence my being cool with not getting a full refund. So yes, I agree and like this suggestion. (after re-reading, I see you did recognize the RD's added costs for refunds).

2. I'm not a marketing guru, so I do not even pretend to understand the economic value of allowing someone access to my social media sites or promoting a race on social media. I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theory dude either, so I don't have a problem posting my race entry onto my Facebook/Instagram/Strava site that includes an invite to the race. Heck, I'd even pony up insults at my athlete friend's about how much they suck if they don't join me at the race!

I would suggest making this really easy for everyone, and provide the value to the RD immediately, by having the posting to social media sites be an automated part of the signup process. For instance, during the signup process, have a point where the athlete is asked "Do you want to tell your friends about your race entry? Doing so will allow you to tell your friends and family about this exciting event, but will also allow you to get a refund in the event you are injured or otherwise unable to participate up to 2 weeks out". If the athlete selects "yes, tell my friends", then the RD gets access to the social media sites and posts something about Kentcart signing up, and oh by the way, click here and you can join him and kick his slow butt". If the athlete chooses to not allow the posting, then they also forgo the cancellation policy. I'm sure some enterprising marketing guru can figure out a kind way of saying "no social media access, no cancellation policy for you".
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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- I don't give a shit what races my friends are doing.
- I am not into social media, and I sure as hell am not going to put my home or my family at risk by announcing in advance my participation in an event.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Petrarch] [ In reply to ]
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- I am not into social media,//

What are you on right now??
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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wetswimmer99 wrote:
And for folks that don't do social media?

i don't know. you tell me. make me an offer.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Kentcart] [ In reply to ]
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Kentcart wrote:
I would suggest making this really easy for everyone, and provide the value to the RD immediately, by having the posting to social media sites be an automated part of the signup process. For instance, during the signup process, have a point where the athlete is asked "Do you want to tell your friends about your race entry?".

that was my initial thought. i posted that idea yesterday. i ran it by some folks who think that's much less valuable than an actual written post by the account owner.

as to the question about whether this is trackable, feasible, i think yes. the onus is on the registrant who seeks the refund. as an RD, there's be a link for refunds. when you click the link you state your identifier (name, i guess) for the purposes of lining you up with the refund you'll be given, and then you're asked to provide the link showing your post made within 72hr of registration. it would take whomever processes this registration exactly 30 seconds to click the link, read the post, look at the date, and see if it's a qualifying post.

now, for those who just don't want to do this, it's not that you can't enter. it's that you get the very same cancellation policy most of you get right now. that's the idea, at least.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
The problems with it are you need someone internal to track the posts. Most race production companies don't have the staff... now you're spending 2-3 hours tracking down social media stuff.

i don't see it that way. you want a refund? provide the link to your conforming post. i'll spend 30sec trying to verify this. don't ask me for a refund unless you can make it that easy for me.

in fact, maybe you post right before you enter. then, as part of the registration process, you provide the link to the post. that's part of the data file i get sent from my reg engine. easy peasy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't like the idea, sorry. There's pressure to get your friends to enter so that you can get a refund ... not really fair on them ...

Another idea (and a couple of event organisers do it here where I live) is not to give a refund but a credit for another / future race. One of them held my credit for over 5 years and sent me reminders every year about it. Needless to say - was happy to go back to them and promote the race to others.

Another idea is taking out an insurance policy like what some of the Lifetime Tri events do. That's acceptable but then the terms are set out by the ins company which may not cover every reason ..

There was another organiser that didn't refund or credit even due to a friend's medical illnesss close to the day of the event. Suffice to say - I haven't given them any $$$ in years (I used to do their events every year for about 10+ yrs). This incident made me realise how greedy they are.
Last edited by: snail: Jan 23, 18 9:59
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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let's say you've got a 400 person race and I'd bet industry cx rates are at least 5-10% now you're spending 2-3 hours tracking down social media stuff. If I was an RD I'd rather roll your entry fee for a nominal admin fee to another race and be done with it. Yet even that costs me more time than the average triathlete thinks it does.

While I have not handled triathlon entries, I spend several years running entries for a large age group swim team (both for our meets and collecting and entering our swimmers in other meets). Entries are easy if they stay within the normal process. Once we went fully online, the online systems we used allowed me to collect and process entries for 2 day 500 swimmer meet (i.e. 4-6 events per swimmer) in about and hour or so. But, if just 10 of those swimmers (i.e parents!) resulted in questions, requests for changes, had to be hand entered because someone missed the deadline etc. - dealing with just those 10 people and all the emails, phone calls and whining took 3 hours. 500 no problem entries = 1 hour; 10 problem entries = 3 hours. Of course, I had 2-3 meets in play at any given time during the height of the season so it took a decent amount of my free time to juggle everything. And, it was ALWAYS the same people who had issues . . . .

I don't think most people can fully comprehend the PITA it is to deal with people with "issues" when you have a fine automated system set up to automatically take care of the other 99% of the people who don't whine ;-)
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just guessing here, but I will speculate that the value of a social media 'like' is wayyyy lower than the cost of a near-full race registration refund. Around here, that refund for a sprint would be $100+. I doubt it's worth that much to post on my FB that "I love XXX race" - first of all, there are probably only 10 triathlon-related friends I have on my FB who'd even consider doing the race, and second of all, it'll probably be pretty late in the game to enter.

If 10 athletes bail, that's like $1000+ equivalent the RD has to eat that could have gone to direct advertising. I'll speculate that you can get higher bang for your buck putting that $1000 to other means than from 10 no-name AGers posting to FB that they "like" your race.

I'm really skeptical of this proposition - the dollar value of the race reg vs the advertising equivalent simply doesn't add up.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion this seems way too complicated for the diverse race population that you will encounter (mainly with respect to proliferation of social media usage).

There are plenty of pricing models out there in the world to analyze that have the same sort of network effect and capacity issues. Take airlines. They offer different classes of service based on the amount you pay. For example, refundable tickets. If you shell out extra money up front you can cancel anytime. You pay for flexibility. So let's apply this to IM pricing (purely an off the cuff example for illustrative purposes, you would need to do an economic analysis).

Package 1: $999 - offers a full refund option, VIP perks, etc etc (e.g. Emirates First Class)
Package 2 - $799 - full refund anytime
Package 3 - $699 - no refund, deferral available for up to 1 year
Package 4 - $499 - no refund or deferral available but you can purchase insurance for injury, bereavement, etc separately. The "budget option" (e.g. Spirit Airlines economy seating)

This is basic price segmentation that accounts for people's risk tolerances and budgets. People would gladly sign up for package 1 early which would then have a network effect to encourage package 4 signups, and that would spur other package signups... and so on. Once you get close to the race, certain packages might no longer be available to account for the decreased uncertainty faced by the participants and/or the RD.

Now airlines are clearly not the most well respected businesses in terms of customer service (for reasons unrelated to this, I believe) but the model works pretty well in terms of meeting the business' and customers' needs for pricing and flexibility.

Strava
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [snail] [ In reply to ]
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snail wrote:
I don't like the idea, sorry. There's pressure to get your friends to enter so that you can get a refund ... not really fair on them ...

Another idea (and a couple of event organisers do it here where I live) is not to give a refund but a credit for another / future race. One of them held my credit for over 5 years and sent me reminders every year about it. Needless to say - was happy to go back to them and promote the race to others.

Another idea is taking out an insurance policy like what some of the Lifetime Tri events do. That's acceptable but then the terms are set out by the ins company which may not cover every reason ..

There was another organiser that didn't refund or credit even due to a friend's medical illnesss close to the day of he event. Suffice to say - I haven't given them any $$$ in years (I used to do their events every year for about 10+ yrs).

thank you for your post. i'm here to learn. thank you for your voice. just, can i drill down a little, and ask for your opinion again? because, are you happy with the status quo in triathlon? i'm not. that's my opinion. too many failing races. declining races. too many customers upset at the current price; refund policy; drafting; and so forth. so, i'm hoping we can turn what we don't like into what we do like.

there will be a few people who feel as you do. i know that. i don't want to disenfranchise them. but, as to insurance, i don't want you to have to file a claim. i don't want an insurance company to decide whether your reason for cancellation was worthy. i want to make it easy for you to get your refund. i want to place it entirely in your power to get your refund, and to get it quickly.

but, if you don't like my option, then what? when RDs have tried making it better for you, as in absorbing the cost of reg into the price without raising the price, there is no change in reg numbers. you say this is important, but your pocketbook behavior doesn't change. so, one way to give you the cancellation policy is to require something in return - require a behavioral change. but you don't want to do what i'm asking; and you don't want to pay more for your entry. so, what? how about...

- if you cancel, you can get a refund if you attend as a volunteer.
- you can fulfill your obligation another way, besides social media, to trigger this cancellation policy. but then what? you tell me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
Now airlines are clearly not the most well respected businesses in terms of customer service (for reasons unrelated to this, I believe) but the model works pretty well in terms of meeting the business' and customers' needs for pricing and flexibility.

airlines are the most despised companies in the world when it comes to customer service. there's a big difference between companies you are forced to patronize versus those you elect to patronize.

but i see your point. what if it was:

$100: no refunds.
$100: refundable up to 2 weeks before the race, with your social media post.
$125: refundable for any reason up to 2 weeks before the race, no strings.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Kentcart wrote:
I would suggest making this really easy for everyone, and provide the value to the RD immediately, by having the posting to social media sites be an automated part of the signup process. For instance, during the signup process, have a point where the athlete is asked "Do you want to tell your friends about your race entry?".


that was my initial thought. i posted that idea yesterday. i ran it by some folks who think that's much less valuable than an actual written post by the account owner.

as to the question about whether this is trackable, feasible, i think yes. the onus is on the registrant who seeks the refund. as an RD, there's be a link for refunds. when you click the link you state your identifier (name, i guess) for the purposes of lining you up with the refund you'll be given, and then you're asked to provide the link showing your post made within 72hr of registration. it would take whomever processes this registration exactly 30 seconds to click the link, read the post, look at the date, and see if it's a qualifying post.

now, for those who just don't want to do this, it's not that you can't enter. it's that you get the very same cancellation policy most of you get right now. that's the idea, at least.

A lot of registration services already offer this. I believe (but could be wrong), that everyone's favorite whipping boy (Active.com) will do this if you allow them. In my case, I never post my intent and am not influenced by the "I am racing" postings I do see. But, I'm also not overly influenced by the refund/transfer policy.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i had a GREAT time with you all yesterday in the 3 or so threads that focused on why you enter, why you don't enter, and what causes you to enter early. i want to ask about something i thought about last night and this morning. it's based on this:

1. a lot of you it seems will enter a race in large part because you're friends are racing it.
2. all of you want the ability to cancel if you get injured or whatever.
3. most of you have a pretty tight budget for what you'll spend on a race.

so... how do you keep the price low? and allow for cancellations? here is what i've come up with, as one option, which may be totally shitty, but i thought i'd throw it out and see if there's anything to it...

1. if you enter early, you are offered a full cancellation option, meaning, a full refund minus the cost of the registration charge that the RD would have to eat (5 percent let us say).

2. but to qualify for it, you must post, to social media, telling folks you're entering, and inviting them to enter with a link to the event.

if you want to trigger the cancellation clause, and get your refund, you must post a link that shows your social outreach, and it must be timely, as in, within 72 hours of the time you entered.

the idea here is:

1. your social outreach offsets the financial risk of the cancellation policy.
2. this partly solves the question of how friends know friends are racing what races.
3. this keeps the race from escalating its fees as the race approaches, because only the early adopters get to invoke the cancellation policy. (late enterers don't pay more, but they don't get to cancel).

tell my why my idea is full of shit.
Interesting...this is actually how I do it now (sans the cancellation policy). I find a "destination race", start a FB page (currently for St.G I started the "St.George 70.3 shit show") and invite a crap ton of my friends to the page with the info on the race, how to sign up, a link and "what my plan is". Currently for St.G it got 8 friends to sign up to go down for it because we can "suffer as a group".
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Post that I'm doing a race to become eligible for a refund? Sign me up right now. This is literally the most minimal effort action for a pretty valuable option. Personally don't think you need to offer a full refund though, a substantial amount (75%+) would be enough to get people's interest I'd think. Or 100% credit for a separate rate (do RDs offer this currently in some areas?) I'm a bit skeptical of the ROI you'd get as an RD though (especially with a full refund) but would be interesting to see someone try this.

If in some way there were travel / logistics benefits for signing up early, that would get me pretty excited. Things like closer parking to transition or restricted access to certain areas pre / post race (showers or hoses post race, for instance) might be interesting but could also be chafing to a race's image. Anything to burden the actual travel / costs and logistics involved would be at the top of my list.
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Re: Cancellation in exchange for Social Push [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

airlines are the most despised companies in the world when it comes to customer service. there's a big difference between companies you are forced to patronize versus those you elect to patronize.

but i see your point. what if it was:

$100: no refunds.
$100: refundable up to 2 weeks before the race, with your social media post.
$125: refundable for any reason up to 2 weeks before the race, no strings.

I would argue that the customer service issues that plague airlines wouldn't transfer over to triathlon if only the pricing model was copied. Unfortunately though I see a lot of similarities between the two industries from a business standpoint:

1) High fixed costs (e.g licenses, support staff,etc)
2) Limited capacity (scaling the business is impossible without incurring additional fixed costs)
3) Subject to external factors beyond the business' control (e.g. weather)

Triathlon is also unique in that it is a niche market, and not growing, which means that RDs are competing for the same pieces of a static pie.

What you suggest above would be great from a customer's standpoint. I would gladly pay an extra 25% for the ability to cancel. But I doubt the RDs would be on board because they are already offering this discount to early signups without the ability to get a refund. This is worse for them than the status quo.

As far as the social media post goes-I would be happy to do that for a refund guarantee, but I am also skeptical of the value of a social media post share from a RD perspective. Maybe your tiers would be $100 / $125 / $150 (this would have to be an economic calculation by the RD for the value of a FB share)

Strava
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