Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal?

Aug 29, 14 23:47

Post #1 of 50 (6792 views)

Quite often I will register a race and see something like this:

If the race is cancelled, will I receive a refund?
We do not not provide refunds for event cancellation or entry withdrawals. Our entry fee is set to recover our direct costs plus a 10 percent contingency fund. The entry fee is used to pay our annual costs. To put it quite simply, the bills must be paid even if the race isn't held.

I question if that is actually legal and I suspect it is not even though it is common. I have heard of racers getting shafted with a race cancellation and no refund, which turned into a credit card dispute through Visa, and the competitors won and got their money back. I am not an attorney, but my though is there are plenty of case law to prove that just because a term is written in a contract and you agree to it does not actually mean it is legally enforceable. In the eyes of the law, simply saying "we are not responsible for...." does not necessarily actually make one not responsible. Imagine if you went to have your car washed, paid for the service, and then the wash guy says they are out of soap so they are not going to wash your car, and you dont get a refund because the bills have to be paid. Yea, right.

I am curious if there have ever been a class-action suit of some sort against a race director for hogging thousands in entry fees and not providing the race. Anyone know?

Last edited by: SPL Tech: Aug 29, 14 23:54

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 2:43

Post #2 of 50 (6705 views)

I am fairly certain we sign a form that agrees to these terms, yes?

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 2:53

Post #3 of 50 (6699 views)

Quote:

I am not an attorney

Enough said.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [TylerJ] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:02

Post #4 of 50 (6688 views)

TylerJ wrote:

I am fairly certain we sign a form that agrees to these terms yes?

And as I said quite clearly, just because you sign a form agreeing to the terms does not make them legal. The law can forgo your signature and deem the contract unenforceable as happens quite often. Like the example I quoted above, just because someone says they are not responsible for something does not actually mean they are not responsible. They can say whatever they want, and you can agree to everything like a peasant before a king, but the law can view the entire contract as void and unenforceable if the terms are ridiculous (such as agreeing to allow someone to scam you by promising a product and then delivering nothing).

Last edited by: SPL Tech: Aug 30, 14 3:09

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:07

Post #5 of 50 (6679 views)

SPL Tech wrote:

TylerJ wrote:

I am fairly certain we sign a form that agrees to these terms yes?

And as I said quite clearly, just because you sign a form agreeing to the terms does not make them legal. The law can forgo your signature and deem the contract unenforceable as happens quite often. Like the example I quoted above, just because someone says they are not responsible for something does not actually mean they are not responsible. They can say whatever they want, and you can agree to everything like a peasant before a king, but the law can view the entire contract as void and unenforceable if the terms are ridiculous (such as agreeing to allow someone to keep your money and not provide the product you purchased.).

You're on your own here, I'm assuming that you have never directed a race, correct?

The last thing a RD wants to do is cancel/change the race....for any reason.

Your analogy at about the car wash is silly too, I don't sign a waiver when I wash my car.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:08

Post #6 of 50 (6675 views)

While I think it is bad practice not to refund money when a service can't be rendered, we DO agree to this upon signing up. Regardless of whether it is legal, we know the deal going in. There is a point of no return for a race director where costs have been incurred that can't be recovered. So in most of these cases, they too have paid money for services that won't be used. Bigger events can insure their race day so that they can provide a refund. This is not so easy or cheap for smaller events. People whine about USAT fees so I can't imagine what they would do if an insurance premium were tacked on in the event of cancellation. If we really want to hold race directors accountable for events that may be beyond their control and make them start refunding thousands of dollars of registration fees out of their own pocket, we will see a lot less people stepping up to put on events. Nobody likes paying for nothing but it is the risk you run when you sign up.

Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Post deleted by SPL Tech [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:19

Post #7 of 50 (6662 views)

Last edited by: SPL Tech: Aug 30, 14 3:24

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:26

Post #8 of 50 (6647 views)

I own a shop and we put on a winter series. People sign that form but we refund money. The hassle would be incredible if you did not, and your race series would have zero future.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:30

Post #9 of 50 (6646 views)

SPL Tech wrote:

Mr. October wrote:

While I think it is bad practice not to refund money when a service can't be rendered, we DO agree to this upon signing up.

Yes, we do, and the RDs/ active.com sign a waiver from Visa when they accept money through credit cards. One of the terms and conditions from Visa/ Master Card and AMEX is that they have to provide the service/ product purchased. If you look on the credit card charge-back/ dispute forms, the first item you can typically choose from is "I did not receive the product or service I purchased." If you check that box and dispute the charge, Visa will require the merchant to prove s/he provided the product and service as purchased (or I guess in some cases, active.com since they run the cards). If s/he cant, then Visa will deem the merchant in breach of contract and debit his or her account for the applicable amount. In some states, violating commercial contract with large corporations like Visa is actually a criminal offense, and so while we do sign a waver, so does the RD, and that waver is signed to protect our rights as consumers.

Then above Visa's wavers are federal laws that govern Visa, such as the Fair Credit Billing Act. So what I am getting at is there are many echelons of "wavers" here, and the one you sign is the lowest on the list.

So what's your end game here?

In the hundreds of races that I have done, NONE have ever been cancelled. It's rare, it just doesn't happen often. If a RD cancels because of an act of god that happens 24-48 hours before a race, your money is already spent. There are so many people that have to be paid for their time, they are just not all going to issue credits to the RD, so they can issue a credit to you...it doesn't happen like that.

So basically what would happen if you started suing RD/active/wtc or whoever, eventually either other race fees would go up to make up for their loss, or the small companies would just go out of business. That makes less races, and the races that do live, cost twice as much.

If you want to try and get people for a class action lawsuit, more power to you. I just think you would find that you don't have a leg to stand on, and there wouldn't be many athletes to join you.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [TylerJ] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 3:42

Post #10 of 50 (6628 views)

TylerJ wrote:

SPL Tech wrote:

Mr. October wrote:

While I think it is bad practice not to refund money when a service can't be rendered, we DO agree to this upon signing up.

Yes, we do, and the RDs/ active.com sign a waiver from Visa when they accept money through credit cards. One of the terms and conditions from Visa/ Master Card and AMEX is that they have to provide the service/ product purchased. If you look on the credit card charge-back/ dispute forms, the first item you can typically choose from is "I did not receive the product or service I purchased." If you check that box and dispute the charge, Visa will require the merchant to prove s/he provided the product and service as purchased (or I guess in some cases, active.com since they run the cards). If s/he cant, then Visa will deem the merchant in breach of contract and debit his or her account for the applicable amount. In some states, violating commercial contract with large corporations like Visa is actually a criminal offense, and so while we do sign a waver, so does the RD, and that waver is signed to protect our rights as consumers.

Then above Visa's wavers are federal laws that govern Visa, such as the Fair Credit Billing Act. So what I am getting at is there are many echelons of "wavers" here, and the one you sign is the lowest on the list.

So what's your end game here?

In the hundreds of races that I have done, NONE have ever been cancelled. It's rare, it just doesn't happen often. If a RD cancels because of an act of god that happens 24-48 hours before a race, your money is already spent. There are so many people that have to be paid for their time, they are just not all going to issue credits to the RD, so they can issue a credit to you...it doesn't happen like that.

So basically what would happen if you started suing RD/active/wtc or whoever, eventually either other race fees would go up to make up for their loss, or the small companies would just go out of business. That makes less races, and the races that do live, cost twice as much.

If you want to try and get people for a class action lawsuit, more power to you. I just think you would find that you don't have a leg to stand on, and there wouldn't be many athletes to join you.

I am not suing anyone, I have never had a race canceled on me, and I am not concerned about it. I know that most RDs are legit and will do everything in their power to keep things on track. It's just a point of discussion as with most topics on here.
I just felt it interesting that some RDs basically say "although you are paying us $900 for this Ironman, we might just keep your money and give you nothing in return.) In most industries, if a business said that they would be on the news.

Last edited by: SPL Tech: Aug 30, 14 3:44

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 4:46

Post #11 of 50 (6566 views)

SPL Tech wrote:

TylerJ wrote:

SPL Tech wrote:

Mr. October wrote:

While I think it is bad practice not to refund money when a service can't be rendered, we DO agree to this upon signing up.

Yes, we do, and the RDs/ active.com sign a waiver from Visa when they accept money through credit cards. One of the terms and conditions from Visa/ Master Card and AMEX is that they have to provide the service/ product purchased. If you look on the credit card charge-back/ dispute forms, the first item you can typically choose from is "I did not receive the product or service I purchased." If you check that box and dispute the charge, Visa will require the merchant to prove s/he provided the product and service as purchased (or I guess in some cases, active.com since they run the cards). If s/he cant, then Visa will deem the merchant in breach of contract and debit his or her account for the applicable amount. In some states, violating commercial contract with large corporations like Visa is actually a criminal offense, and so while we do sign a waver, so does the RD, and that waver is signed to protect our rights as consumers.

Then above Visa's wavers are federal laws that govern Visa, such as the Fair Credit Billing Act. So what I am getting at is there are many echelons of "wavers" here, and the one you sign is the lowest on the list.

So what's your end game here?

In the hundreds of races that I have done, NONE have ever been cancelled. It's rare, it just doesn't happen often. If a RD cancels because of an act of god that happens 24-48 hours before a race, your money is already spent. There are so many people that have to be paid for their time, they are just not all going to issue credits to the RD, so they can issue a credit to you...it doesn't happen like that.

So basically what would happen if you started suing RD/active/wtc or whoever, eventually either other race fees would go up to make up for their loss, or the small companies would just go out of business. That makes less races, and the races that do live, cost twice as much.

If you want to try and get people for a class action lawsuit, more power to you. I just think you would find that you don't have a leg to stand on, and there wouldn't be many athletes to join you.

I am not suing anyone, I have never had a race canceled on me, and I am not concerned about it. I know that most RDs are legit and will do everything in their power to keep things on track. It's just a point of discussion as with most topics on here.
I just felt it interesting that some RDs basically say "although you are paying us $900 for this Ironman, we might just keep your money and give you nothing in return.) In most industries, if a business said that they would be on the news.

I don't know of any Ironman that cost $900 entry fee.

& the few that have been shortened or cancelled, I am pretty sure have done their best to make it right.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 5:50

Post #12 of 50 (6489 views)

A good example right now are people asking for refunds yesterday for Hy Vee even before the race because the course was modified (Weather). People simply do not get that come race weekend race directors have already spent on all suppliers, they cannot get a refund on venue, t-shirt, medals, timing etc.... If they had to refund everyone to would simply go out of business or take a huge hit. Read your waiver, I a sure that force majeure or weather is in there.

I understand if you show up at the race and they cancel for no good reason, i.e no permit and the race does not got on. But it would be in a case by case basis, the last thing any RD wants to do is modify the course or cancel the event in anyway...be smart about it.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 6:19

Post #13 of 50 (6449 views)

I have had several races cancelled; weather(heat), other issues. In only one did I receive a refund, however one did mail out the shirts! One offered a discount on a future race, the rest; never heard from them. They were all legitimate events, not frauds, so what can you do, and even if they were frauds, there wouldn't be any money left for refunds anyway.

I'm happy to have RD's put on events and go through all the efforts and hassles that they do, in the event it doesn't go as plan, I'm willing to take my share of the risk (my entry fee).

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 6:21

Post #14 of 50 (6443 views)

vonschnapps wrote:

I have had several races cancelled; weather(heat), other issues. In only one did I receive a refund, however one did mail out the shirts! One offered a discount on a future race, the rest; never heard from them. They were all legitimate events, not frauds, so what can you do, and even if they were frauds, there wouldn't be any money left for refunds anyway.

I'm happy to have RD's put on events and go through all the efforts and hassles that they do, in the event it doesn't go as plan, I'm willing to take my share of the risk (my entry fee).

This is a pretty healthy way to look at it...

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [TylerJ] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 6:45

Post #15 of 50 (6413 views)

The last thing a RD wants to do is cancel/change the race....for any reason.

Except for $

http://www.outsideonline.com/...Biz-Dean-Reinke.html

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [Mr. October] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 6:56

Post #16 of 50 (6381 views)

Mr. October wrote:

Regardless of whether it is legal, we know the deal going in. There is a point of no return for a race director where costs have been incurred that can't be recovered. So in most of these cases, they too have paid money for services that won't be used.

I like racing. I enjoy the build up to it, I (usually) enjoy the atmosphere on race day and the whole experience. I appreciate RD's for putting on the races.

I understand that most of their costs are paid up front. Here (Ontario) if you cancel the event, the Police still get paid for a minimum of 3 hours. Location costs, advertising, etc. they're all paid well in advance.

If you want to make sure you get a refund there's only two solutions:

1) fewer people will put on fewer races since they don't want to incur the financial risk of a cancelled event
2) races will have to insure against cancellation which will cost you and I more money

Instead, I figure people should just be reasonable. If there's a thunderstorm, that sucks but what can you do? Things happen. The sooner you accept it and move on, the happier you will be.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 7:15

Post #17 of 50 (6346 views)

"One of the terms and conditions from Visa/ Master Card and AMEX is that they have to provide the service/ product purchased."

i think the service/product was delivered. even in a canceled race. the service was the production of a triathlon, or the good faith attempt to produce a triathlon. any RD who gets right up to race week, and then cancels the race because his body of water has been fouled, or a hurricane is racing through the area, or a forest fire threatens the participants, or a terrorist act closes the bike course roadways through the military facility, has certainly performed the service. if you put on a race and you get to race week, ask yourself if you did any work leading up to that.

of course, there are frauds. there are frauds in any business. in any endeavor. one way to know whether or not this is a fraudulent case is whether the race has ever took place before. if this is the 6th annual, do you think the RD has an interest in putting on the 7th, 8th and 9th annual? canceling a race places into severe jeopardy the health of subsequent editions of that race. it's the very last thing he wants to do.

if contestants don't understand, and accept, as a condition of participation, that 1 in 500 or 1000 races or so will be canceled due to an act of god or nature or force majeure, then we don't have race directors anymore and if we don't have them you don't have a sport.

this is, in a way, kind of like that other discussion we're having elsewhere about whether pros are an integral part of the ironman experience. one generation comes along and gives you a sport, through the cooperative work of a bunch of people who were all exactly alike when they caught the triathlon bug, but diverged into pros, RDs, manufacturers, timers, course marshals, journalists, and so forth. all working together. then the next generation comes along and creates adversarial relationships between these various people. the constituent elements of triathlon should not, need not, and do not exist in tension when all parties understand the duties, the service, the risk and the value that all the other parties provide.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 7:18

Post #18 of 50 (6335 views)

You're thinking about it wrong. It's a contract, either propose other terms or contract with someone else. I suppose you could argue about the validity of the cancellation after the cancellation.

Except for arguing that the cancellation was on improper grounds, it would probably only be illegal if a race director never intended to put on the race.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 7:27

Post #19 of 50 (6323 views)

There's a difference between cancelling it and fraudulently cancelling it.

Situation A) You sign up and pay your fee. RD sets up race. Hires vendors and signs contracts. Day before the race there's an event necessitating the cancellation of the race. RD still needs to pay vendors.

Situation B) You sign up and pay your fee. RD does jack shit including but not limited to getting a permit to hold the race or hire vendors. Day before the event cancels race and pockets the money. Goes on vacation to Tahiti.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [sportstats] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 7:28

Post #20 of 50 (6321 views)

On the flip side, the race director must also sign something when dealing with the online registration company. IE the merchant terms of Visa MC Amex.
A smart RD should offer the next years race entry, after the current years race with a deep discount but cash only policy. Then you have a percentage of your revenue under your terms and conditions and not Visas

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 8:02

Post #21 of 50 (6280 views)

realAlbertan wrote:

On the flip side, the race director must also sign something when dealing with the online registration company. IE the merchant terms of Visa MC Amex.
A smart RD should offer the next years race entry, after the current years race with a deep discount but cash only policy. Then you have a percentage of your revenue under your terms and conditions and not Visas

I believe that when you sign up to accept Visa, you are not allowed to do the above.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 8:31

Post #22 of 50 (6246 views)

If anything, I would hope they could reimburse the sponsors for their contribution. In all the races I've done in my life, maybe only one or two didn't have some sort of sponsor. Cancelling an event also has some detriment to the sponsors, whether or not I race the event again really doesn't matter, losing sponsors could mean that nobody races next time.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 9:18

Post #23 of 50 (6199 views)

I've had three triathlons cancelled. All the same triathlon. At one point it was two years in a row. Thunderstorms so it's not like they had a choice. The majority of money goes to charity (it's a not a for-profit organization) so I never considered a refund, although I do know a few people who received refunds from their credit card.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 10:18

Post #24 of 50 (6140 views)

If an event sponsor is only getting exposure and ROI from race day they spent their money on the wrong event.

Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY

Re: Canceling Events and Not Providing Refunds--Legal? [SPL Tech] [ In reply to ]

Aug 30, 14 11:39

Post #25 of 50 (6066 views)

Was the cancellation reason due to any negligence or misrepresentation by the RD - If yes, then you can hire a lawyer and pay him thousands and he will have to prove negligence or misrep which will not be easy and even if you somehow win, you may (or may not) get back the $85....

If the cancellation reason was due to a legitimate reason such as safety - You have no case.

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