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Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick?
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I'm a M50-54 triathlete with 3 seasons under my belt. I'm been a cyclist and runner my whole life but only really started swimming seriously three years ago. It's by *far* my weakest of the three sports.

I've attended a couple of Total Immersion workshops where they recommend and teach the two beat kick - so that's what I've been trying to do, but without much success. I currently swim at a 2:15/100m pace which is frustratingly slow - and I wonder if my 2BK is the problem.

Then I saw this article on the SwimSmooth website:

http://www.feelforthewater.com/...g-two-beat-kick.html

In short, it says you shouldn't try a 2BK unless you're already a pretty good swimmer - which I am not.

What do you think? Should novice swimmers like me stay away from the 2BK?
Last edited by: smallard: Jan 12, 15 15:18
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. If you've done Total Immersion, there's also a good chance that you would be classified by SwimSmooth as an Overglider. Overglider plus two beat kick doesn't make you go anywhere, and good chance that you develop a big kick from the knee to kickstart your stroke everytime as it stalls.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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If you're a novice /poor swimmer, don't overthink your kick. Most important are body position and pull, and get your kick to the point that it at least doesn't slow you down.

That said, if you are doing a 2beat, at your pace, then chances are that your kick is getting in your way. Not necessarily the kick itself, but Because of poor mechanics at the front of the stroke, causing a chain of events which result in fish tailing and/or a large scissor kick which acts as a brake.

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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Put a pull buoy on and see what differences you experience. If you can't propel yourself forward kicking with a kickboard-like me- then a 6 beat kick won't make any difference. Johnny O stated something like, can't kick, then learn to tuck those legs behind the body. Good luck.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the video link. I never really understood the 2 beat kick, but I can now see it. I just kick, never thinking about what I am doing. At least their comments is not really good or bad.

I only improved my swim times when I started to do masters swimming 5 days a week for a few years. I sure miss it, and my swim times show it. But since this is a hobby, I am
not losing any sleep over it.

.

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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Mmmm
Started swimming seriously 3 years ago
2:15/100m pace
Good cyclist and runner (so good fitness levels)

Sounds like something is seriously wrong. You should be easily faster by now and your kick is not likely the issue. It doesn't contribute much to propulsion for most of us anyway so changing your kick isn't going to improve you significantly. If you haven't had any coaching, this is where I'd start because it's likely your problems are above the waist. After 3 years you probably should be able to throw a band on (no kick) and move better than 2:15 pace.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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I started my swim training using a two beat kick...
and, my 100 times are close to yours.

When using the 2bk I tend to fishtail, and not rotate evenly...
marked improvement with the 6bk.

I'm about 10% faster with the 6bk, but expend more energy. I'm trying to become more comfortable... only working on it for a couple weeks, but happy with progress.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [Kevin Curtis] [ In reply to ]
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You'll always expend significantly more energy with a 6 beat than a 2, so the issue is what is more important, saving energy or speed? My feeling is that it's good to have both in your toolbox, to use as the situation arises. At the start it's often tactically a good idea to sprint the first 100 m or so before dropping into a sustainable pace, need a 6 beat for that.

Really, there is no single correct way to do it, you need to be versatile enough to do either a 2 or 6 or hybrid effectively, and even be able to do a semi decent backstroke.

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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Having been exactly where you were, I'll chime in with what I learned from my experience-

- As said above, your 2 beat kick is NOT your speed limiter, not even close. It's far, far more your pulling power and pull mechanics (and actually a lot more power in my opinion, but that doesn't mean you should start going hard all the time - you have to learn to apply MORE power CORRECTLY, which is a stroke mechanics fix first.)

- That said, learning a 2-beat kick is probably more helpful than not for more novice swimmers in my opinion, because it forces you to really examine your arm stroke imbalances if you reallly want to get it right. It's really hard to do a correct 2-beat kick if you have a really imbalanced stroke. When most novices kick, a big portion of that kick is solely devoted to offsetting the imbalances generated by the uneven pull. That's why 2-beat kicks seem so hard for novices - it exposes the front half imbalances by removing the back half fixes to some degree. Of course, the best way to truly fix the front end imbalances along these lines is to practice with NO kick until you can do it readily - pull sets with a tight ankle band (+buoy for novices) will really show you that your stroke that you thought was so balanced, isn't so balanced at all.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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Don't overthink your kick. Two beat is very hard to pull off until you have great body position and stroke mechanics on the front half. Some say it's similar to swimming with the band.

I kick with a soft six-beat. It's supposed to be harder but for me it's easier because there's no thought involved and it allows me to rotate more in the hips.

Again. Don't overthink the kick. That's maybe the one thing you don't have to overthink with swimming, for a while at least.

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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I wrote this a while back but maybe it can help.

http://badig.com/...6/the-two-beat-kick/

Another thing you might want to try is a pull buoy AND fins. the buoy keeps the body up and helps kill that 'urge' to kick and the fins help show you the proper timing. Try 1 leg at first, until you get the feel and then just the other, then a full 2 beat. After doing that for a while, lose the buoy and fins and see if you can do it without. Good luck.

TJ

Badig| Strava


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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [tjfry] [ In reply to ]
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Hi there - I'm the OP on this thread, thanks to all of you for your helpful comments.

I'm seeing a few common themes in your replies - one is "the kick is no big deal - if you're swimming 2:15/100m, the issue is your upper body".

So today in the pool, I took the suggestion of a couple of you and swam with an ankle band/pull buoy combination. My pace improved to 1:55/100m and I was *significantly* less tired at the end of the session.

So how do i interpret this? It seems to me that a) I have a buoyancy/alignment problem b) my current 2BK is actually slowing me down.

So what should I do next? I'm inclined to continue with the pull buoy to fine tune the upper body some more. Then move to (or add?) fins and try to incorporate a kick *without* slowing down.

What would you do?

Thanks!
Last edited by: smallard: Jan 13, 15 13:06
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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I would interpret that as you having a scissor kick.... or just a really really inefficient six-beat kick... I have heard stories of people literally kicking backwards and said people universally had a running background (tight ankles, kick from knee, etc)
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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smallard wrote:
Hi there - I'm the OP on this thread, thanks to all of you for your helpful comments.

I'm seeing a few common themes in your replies - one is "the kick is no big deal - if you're swimming 2:15/100m, the issue is your upper body".

So today in the pool, I took the suggestion of a couple of you and swam with an ankle band/pull buoy combination. My pace improved to 1:55/100m and I was *significantly* less tired at the end of the session.

So how do i interpret this? It seems to me that a) I have a buoyancy/alignment problem b) my current 2BK is actually slowing me down.

So what should I do next? I'm inclined to continue with the pull buoy to fine tune the upper body some more. Then move to fins and try to incorporate a kick *without* slowing down.

What would you do?

Thanks!
You're probably faster mostly because the pull buoy is keeping your body level. But other possibilities to consider:

a) maybe the kick is coming too much from the knee, increasing your drag and affecting your balance
b) the kick timing is wrong and inhibiting your body rotation.

Video would help, in any case.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Videos per your request.

These were done a few months ago, and I'd like to think I'm better than this now, but I'm guessing the roots of my problem are still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgsDi1FZnHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlcTc2DmCM
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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smallard wrote:
Videos per your request.

These were done a few months ago, and I'd like to think I'm better than this now, but I'm guessing the roots of my problem are still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgsDi1FZnHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlcTc2DmCM

That pretty much clears it up.

Your legs are sinking like crazy with your 2-beat kick. The pull buoy fixes this for you, and you thus go faster. This is the biggie why you're faster with the buoy.

Next, your kick is a runners kick, with too much knee flexion, so yes, it probably slows you down a little bit when you're kicking with it. But this is really minor (like 1sec/100 slowdown) compared to the body drag issue, which is a lot more.

(In terms of why you're not swimming sub 1:20s, you will need a ton more power and turnover - it's not just your dragging body position that's holding you back from those speeds, it's the very slow turnover and lack of pull power. But of course, you really want to get the technique as best you can early on so you don't instill bad habits that are hard to erase by doing a lot of yardage with it.)

Learning to swim with an ankle band will likely help you a lot. Start with buoy+band, then lose the buoy.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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My kick is only for keeping my body position correct in the water. Other than that, I get nothing from it. But I think it looks like the two beat kick. Maybe a two beat flutter is more like it.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
smallard wrote:
Videos per your request.

These were done a few months ago, and I'd like to think I'm better than this now, but I'm guessing the roots of my problem are still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgsDi1FZnHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlcTc2DmCM


That pretty much clears it up.

Your legs are sinking like crazy with your 2-beat kick. The pull buoy fixes this for you, and you thus go faster. This is the biggie why you're faster with the buoy.

Next, your kick is a runners kick, with too much knee flexion, so yes, it probably slows you down a little bit when you're kicking with it. But this is really minor (like 1sec/100 slowdown) compared to the body drag issue, which is a lot more.

(In terms of why you're not swimming sub 1:20s, you will need a ton more power and turnover - it's not just your dragging body position that's holding you back from those speeds, it's the very slow turnover and lack of pull power. But of course, you really want to get the technique as best you can early on so you don't instill bad habits that are hard to erase by doing a lot of yardage with it.)

Learning to swim with an ankle band will likely help you a lot. Start with buoy+band, then lose the buoy.
Also look at the catch. After the hand entry, the stroke pushes downward, which contributes to the high chest / low legs. Try to keep the elbows high and push the water backwards.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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I would work on your pull big time, doesn't look like you're getting much and finishing too soon (my swimming is weak and have been getting lessons).

My coach has me work on the pull from start to finish (thumb grazing hip before starting stroke over, high elbow). For the life of me I can't remember the names of the drills, one I want to say is the zipper drill and the other may just be the catch drill. Anyways, not sure if you've invested in having private lessons, but it's already made a world of difference to me, certainly worth the $$$ if you want to truly get better. The ROI has been substantial, to me at least.
Last edited by: B3CK: Jan 13, 15 16:00
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
Also look at the catch. After the hand entry, the stroke pushes downward, which contributes to the high chest / low legs. Try to keep the elbows high and push the water backwards.

Big time...that front view is very telling...you need major work on your catch...most strokes your arm is pointing straight down from the shoulder.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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smallard wrote:
Videos per your request.

These were done a few months ago, and I'd like to think I'm better than this now, but I'm guessing the roots of my problem are still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgsDi1FZnHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlcTc2DmCM

Ya, as others have said, you are not grabbing the water very well at all. You should feel a large amount of resistance on your hands and forearms when pulling, whereas your forearms and hands seem to be mainly slipping through the water, rather than really pulling it. You might want to try paddles, pull buoy, and a loose ankle band, i.e. keeping your ankles around 2-3 inches apart, and try to really pull hard with the paddles. Then, after say 4 x 100 with this gear, take off the paddles but keep buoy/band on, and try to pull hard for 4 x 100, then finally do 4 x 100 with no gear at all. Gradually, you should be able to feel what we mean by pulling hard, and then your arms/shoulders will feel quite tired. You absolutely have to pull hard to get any sort of speed in the water.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
You absolutely have to pull hard to get any sort of speed in the water.
But not downward.

Focus needs to be on keeping the elbow near the waterline throughout the stroke. It'll might feel weaker at first until the form is ingrained.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
You absolutely have to pull hard to get any sort of speed in the water.

But not downward. Focus needs to be on keeping the elbow near the waterline throughout the stroke. It'll might feel weaker at first until the form is ingrained.

Well right, that kind of goes w/o saying, i.e. we have to push backwards on the water in order to go forward. But right, understand what you're getting at, i.e. that the OP is currently pushing down too much. I was mainly getting at the fact that, when i watched his videos, he just doesn't seem to be really pulling hard, but rather just going through the motions.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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I am a horrible swimmer but here are a few tips. Stop holding your breath. You need to blow out the air as soon as you get your face in the water after you breath otherwise you will build up co2. Glide for a second after your hand gets in front of you. It seems like you are doing some kind of windmill stroke and you are not gliding at all. Keep your elbows high on the pull. Press your chest down so your legs come up. It is hard to tell from the video but it looks like your hands are crossing the center of your head. Keep them a few inches further away from the center line. You are also lifting your head way too high when you take a breath. If you look at your video you can see your legs drop even further each time you breath. Try keeping one eye in the water when taking a breath. That will keep your head down.
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Re: Can a Novice Swimmer Do a Two Beat Kick? [smallard] [ In reply to ]
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You are getting some great feedback here. I'm no great swimmer at all, but also noticed the sinky legs and poor catch, pushing the water down etc.

What's interesting is that your video looks like it was taken at a stroke clinic? Did you not get that feedback from those guys? If somebody like me can see it then you'd hope a coach running a swim stroke clinic could tell you the same!!

Hopefully you'll get some excellent advice on how to correct these issues from folks like ericmulk and jasoninhalifax, these are guys worth listening to.
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