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Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice)
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For you guys, who are good at this, I got the timing down for when my head is up and I am breathing, but I can't relax as well when pulling and keeping my head in the water for the strokes where you are not breathing. I am thinking there is too much amplitude in my body on the non breathing stroke and I need to keep the kick tighter and keep the head submerged (swim a bit more flat). I always feel a tension around my neck like doing a lat pulldown behind your neck (obviously bad). I have tried all kinds of experimentation and thought some of you real swim people can help here. Hydrodynamically "head down + chest down" should be less drag anyway and less amplitude in the legs should also be less drag and less oxygen utilization? Maybe my neck flexibility is getting in the way too.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Here's my $0.02 to describe what ***may*** be going on and how to fix it.

From my personal experience of having to deal with "text-neck posture" this could be the source of compromised neck and shoulder flexibility in your butterfly stroke. I spend time now in more thoracic spinal extension in both Pilates and Yoga classes.

Age-related poor eyesight, causing you to lean into the computer screen a degree or two may be the source and now the answer is as simple as bending the opposite direction while stretching. It doesn't change overnight, but it does get better.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I was a butterflyer through school... when I fatigue I use my head up to help "launch" my upper body up and forward and start the overall body motion on the stroke. Is this happening when you are fatigued or always? When I learned to not use my head as part of the forward motion of the stroke I became a better flyer. It shifted the strength of my stroke lower down my core and kept if from being focused in my upper back.

My coaches were all about volume so we didn't discuss technique a lot. We just did it and did lots of it.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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As a 'swinger' style swimmer I don't actually need a kick to swim functional butterfly, but I will say this. I hate butterfly and a 200 IM is absolute torture. Fatigued my butterfly is absolute $hit, so I say don't swim it fatigued. Do 100 IMs, butterfly always first. At the freestyle on the end of the set go easy because butterfly is next :D

Learn to swim a proper non-fatigued butterfly and never slog out anything over a 50 of fly in a workout :D


<-----non butterflyer

I did alright on the butterfly leg of a medly relay but it was a cold, terrible day when my team needed me there instead of the free or breastroke :|

So how to fix? I dunno, most butterflyers with problems just have problems everywhere, big pauses in the stroke, not digging hard enough and launching themselves forward enough, not getting enough vertical oscillation to dolphin kick with the entire body as a unit/etc

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Don't worry about it and just breathe every stroke, it seems to be the style now. When I swam butterfly I had the opposite problem, I was more comfortable not breathing, but that was very exhausting and I hated fly.

check out my blog http://theswimmingtriathlete.com
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SDCali] [ In reply to ]
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SDCali wrote:
Don't worry about it and just breathe every stroke, it seems to be the style now. When I swam butterfly I had the opposite problem, I was more comfortable not breathing, but that was very exhausting and I hated fly.

I find I am faster breathing every stroke, but I figure maybe I am doing something wrong and should be faster (at least over 50m) breathing every other.

Doing fly is a new skill for me (I only figured out how to do this at age 50 last summer, so only been doing it for a year) but I am really enjoying it and what is funny is people who are "real swimmers" see me doing it in the pool and say it is pretty "awesome", and then they look at my free and say "If you could only get that up to the same level"....the funny thing is i have been doing free all screwed up for 32 years badly as a triathlete and I literally cannot fix all the screwed up timing patterns

I tried something after lane swim was over and they opened the pool up for kids public swim. During this time, I often do kick sets on widths (side kicking, back kicking, dolphin etc) so decided to do some widths fly head down all the way (6 lanes wide, so not bad). I think I started getting it. Above some of you guys were saying to not "lead with my head" which is actually what I was doing trying to dive down with my head after breathing.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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Actually to fix what you are talking about I have been doing some of this:



But with my hands in the torpedo streamline position above my head like I am gliding. Also this one but lifting my above head arm further up:



What do you think?
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I find I am faster breathing every stroke, but I figure maybe I am doing something wrong and should be faster (at least over 50m) breathing every other.

Hmm. Again, my coaches were tremendously void on discussing technique, but if I was doing the 50 fly or part of a relay, I rarely kept my head down on any of the strokes and instead breathed every stroke. When I was doing 100 or 200 fly I kept my head down more to conserve energy. When I mouthed off to my coach once and he made me do the entire day's workout in fly, my head was down a lot.

That said, when you watch the olympics, there is a lot of head down on the sprints....

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Those were exactly what I had in mind. I have posted another to add if you have access to a foam roller:

My ***GUESS*** again is the cervical area (neck) or lumbar spine (lower back) are over-compensating and that your butterfly problems are in the thoracic area (rib cage).

For the first stretch you chose, I like this photo more because it shows the ribs (thoracic spine) being stretched where I think your tightness may be, instead of the lower back, which isn't your issue. Notice the emphasis in this photo is on upper back lengthening, instead of hinging so much from the lower back.


When doing the second exercise you chose, I suggest thinking about extending and lengthening the back of your neck instead of flexing and shortening it by raising it. In other words, stretch the back of your head towards the wall in front of you and not up to the ceiling. This will increase thoracic extension, which may fix the shoulder problem. Here is a good picture:

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SLOgoing] [ In reply to ]
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9 times out of 10 butterfly errors are timing errors.
You are keying your timing off of your head movement and loose that key when you don't exaggerate head movement to breathe.
Nice problem to have, most find breathing harder as they tend to breathe late and inhibit their body motion with their head still up.
One way you can practice timing butterfly without getting yourself wrecked is to do one arm with breathing to the side like freestyle.
This has a naturally lower head position and is mostly used when teaching somebody to fly.
It is a great way to nail the timing.
You can do it either with an extended non stroking arm or arm by your side.
I suggest both.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
Those were exactly what I had in mind. I have posted another to add if you have access to a foam roller:

My ***GUESS*** again is the cervical area (neck) or lumbar spine (lower back) are over-compensating and that your butterfly problems are in the thoracic area (rib cage).

For the first stretch you chose, I like this photo more because it shows the ribs (thoracic spine) being stretched where I think your tightness may be, instead of the lower back, which isn't your issue. Notice the emphasis in this photo is on upper back lengthening, instead of hinging so much from the lower back.


When doing the second exercise you chose, I suggest thinking about extending and lengthening the back of your neck instead of flexing and shortening it by raising it. In other words, stretch the back of your head towards the wall in front of you and not up to the ceiling. This will increase thoracic extension, which may fix the shoulder problem. Here is a good picture:

Wow huge thanks and yes, I experiment in the water for the "breath part" try to see if I can keep the vertical oscillation down by lifting my head but not letting hips sink or by lifting from the lumbar and not turning head too much like this with chin barely clearing the water so I don't get a mouth full but after trying your exercises, I can see the thoracic limitations and getting that more flexible like a dolphin should make it easier for both lumbar and cervical areas:



But regardless of whether it is a breath stroke or not I think I need to get to this:


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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if this will help you, but it sure made a difference in my fly when I figured it out (like others, my coaches simply let us figure out the technique unless we were doing some dq worthy stuff).

On the non-breathing stroke, the head basically sits in the exact same position in the water as your neutral freestyle head position. The fulcrum is at your shoulders and you try to undulate by pressing your chest/ shoulders down while the head basically stays put. You *almost* feel like the whirl on your scalp (should you still have one of those) is launching towards the wall. During the breathing cycle, the chin comes straight up so it's barely cleared the surface but you should feel like you are launching it forward, towards the wall and






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks....the advice to keep head in neutral freestyle position vs lifting it but not breathing makes sense. Yesterday when I was swimming "widths" after lane swim not breathing this is what I found worked well. So between that and the advice provided here on thoracic spine and chest usage, I think I can get there. I will report back after today. It's not that I can't do the none breathing stroke, its just that I feel a tad of resistance to get the arms over and recovered back into the catch phase and I was feeling my head position was the culprit and based on the feedback provided here, I think you guys nailed it without seeming me do it.

I like the "launch head forward and chin just clearing water" advice for the breathing cycle:

Love this pic with water all over their faces, but somehow Cavic and Phelps are breathing:



This is what you are describing:


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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Are you not pushing your kick as hard since you don't feel the need for lift? So much power comes from your legs and hips in fly and it is easy to to think of a non-breathing stroke as a bit of a rest stroke and not drive your legs as hard. When I don't breathe I count in my head the one-two kick to make sure I am driving just as hard from my legs. I find the first kick beat happens naturally- but when not breathing you have to really focus and push to hit the second beat of the kick hard.

A fun drill is to grasp your thumbs behind your back (so you are not using your arms at all) and do a fly kick breathing every two kicks forward just like you would with arms- then once you have that timing down mix in two kicks breathe two kicks don't. This will pretty quickly highlight a kick or timing issue.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
Are you not pushing your kick as hard since you don't feel the need for lift? So much power comes from your legs and hips in fly and it is easy to to think of a non-breathing stroke as a bit of a rest stroke and not drive your legs as hard. When I don't breathe I count in my head the one-two kick to make sure I am driving just as hard from my legs. I find the first kick beat happens naturally- but when not breathing you have to really focus and push to hit the second beat of the kick hard.

A fun drill is to grasp your thumbs behind your back (so you are not using your arms at all) and do a fly kick breathing every two kicks forward just like you would with arms- then once you have that timing down mix in two kicks breathe two kicks don't. This will pretty quickly highlight a kick or timing issue.

All you guys are genius and picking apart a number of items that seem to be in line with what I am not doing...my none breathing second kick is very likely lame because I am focusing so much on the upper body. I find when I do fly, I actually rarely am pushing all out with both core/leg or lats/arms. It almost always feels like if I pull hard, the legs go on strike, or if I kick hard the arms are soft pulling. I am not sure if this is a mental concentration thing or simply the physiology of only having so much cardio to "give" to working muscles in both place so if i give to the core/legs, the arms/lats get less or vice versa.

I will first try to do your drill with fins and then without and report back. Lots of stuff to work on today. All of this technical work kind of takes me back to my XC ski racing days.....most of many workouts were just technical not really chasing clocks/intervals and just learning connecting brain to body and trying to control the stupid body.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Hydrodynamically "head down + chest down" should be less drag anyway and less amplitude in the legs should also be less drag and less oxygen utilization? Maybe my neck flexibility is getting in the way too.

It's been 20 years since my college career- but I remember head down being about a quicker recovery to get to the next power phase (since you did not need time to breathe). Not about it being a rest phase of the stroke- but power very slightly quicker. The breathing stroke is where you get your oxygen the head down strokes are to suffer more faster. Not much changes other than you save a split second breathing and get your next pull in- and perhaps your slightly flatter second kick uses more forward energy than up and down energy. That said this could have changed a lot since my days the evolution of the sport is impressive.

Up thread someone mentioned one arm - I always loved 3 left, 3 right, 3 full strokes. Great for keeping your flow going with your kick and not letting the arm changes mess with your rhythm.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks guys for all the input. Perhaps the best way to describe what I had been experiencing is that when my head was down, there was less flow in the stroke and some additional resistance in my stroke when my elbows come in line with my head. Applying more of a thoracic spine curve as suggested above and keeping my head neutral like in freestyle and more actively kicking hard on both kicks the problem is resolving.

At the end of today's swim I did 10x100m with the first 25m fly "sprint" 25 free recovery, 25 free hard, and 25 free easy...rest of 15 seconds and repeat. The fly sprint, I was doing 3 strokes head down pull and the 4th breathing which really forced the timing for head down so that I would not get "confused" with the slight modification for head up. I did these hard which was useful. Per Sallyshortypants' suggesting I tried to swim with a "long extended neck" (while in the neutral free position). A nice side affect of all this was when I got into my free sprint, I was also swimming more streamlined with my chest and neck in what felt like more of a hydrodynamic position.

Also during my warmup I was swimming free and then I'd do one catch up and two head down fly strokes and then back to free and repeat, trying to keep head in the free position during the head down fly. This was helpful.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SLOgoing] [ In reply to ]
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SLOgoing wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I find I am faster breathing every stroke, but I figure maybe I am doing something wrong and should be faster (at least over 50m) breathing every other.


Hmm. Again, my coaches were tremendously void on discussing technique, but if I was doing the 50 fly or part of a relay, I rarely kept my head down on any of the strokes and instead breathed every stroke. When I was doing 100 or 200 fly I kept my head down more to conserve energy. When I mouthed off to my coach once and he made me do the entire day's workout in fly, my head was down a lot.

That said, when you watch the olympics, there is a lot of head down on the sprints....

hey guys, OK, I have swam around 25K since I posted this thread so had plenty of opportunity to try all kinds of stuff. SLOgoing, you mentioned your coaches never talking too much about technique and letting you all just do the yards and figure it out....and frankly there is a lot to said about that and I took many of the points you all brought up and I THINK I figured out the power pull on the no breath.

I literally have to keep my chest pushed down and my head way submerged as I pull with my lats and shoulders and feel the water flowing over the back of my neck and not let my neck surface (even though head is still down) for the recovery. Suddenly I was really flying and timing for the entire body felt more correct. Sitting my my office, my legs feel like I just did a 100 mile ride....they were able to work so much harder from this pull position. I'll report back later and I'll see if I can get someone to video (although it is illegal to video at all city of Ottawa pools).

Dev
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
SLOgoing wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I find I am faster breathing every stroke, but I figure maybe I am doing something wrong and should be faster (at least over 50m) breathing every other.


Hmm. Again, my coaches were tremendously void on discussing technique, but if I was doing the 50 fly or part of a relay, I rarely kept my head down on any of the strokes and instead breathed every stroke. When I was doing 100 or 200 fly I kept my head down more to conserve energy. When I mouthed off to my coach once and he made me do the entire day's workout in fly, my head was down a lot.

That said, when you watch the olympics, there is a lot of head down on the sprints....


hey guys, OK, I have swam around 25K since I posted this thread so had plenty of opportunity to try all kinds of stuff. SLOgoing, you mentioned your coaches never talking too much about technique and letting you all just do the yards and figure it out....and frankly there is a lot to said about that and I took many of the points you all brought up and I THINK I figured out the power pull on the no breath.

I literally have to keep my chest pushed down and my head way submerged as I pull with my lats and shoulders and feel the water flowing over the back of my neck and not let my neck surface (even though head is still down) for the recovery. Suddenly I was really flying and timing for the entire body felt more correct. Sitting my my office, my legs feel like I just did a 100 mile ride....they were able to work so much harder from this pull position. I'll report back later and I'll see if I can get someone to video (although it is illegal to video at all city of Ottawa pools).

Dev


That's great news! You're on the right track when you "get" the undulations that are inherent to good butterfly. In your honor, I entered my first swim meet in 40+ years on Sunday and swam 100m fly. Nope, not posting my slooooow time Because superstar Karly Pipes is in my AG too; I will only say that I represented my age group well (given everyone else was young enough to be my child even grandchild ;-)

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I literally have to keep my chest pushed down and my head way submerged as I pull with my lats and shoulders and feel the water flowing over the back of my neck and not let my neck surface (even though head is still down) for the recovery. Suddenly I was really flying and timing for the entire body felt more correct. Sitting my my office, my legs feel like I just did a 100 mile ride....they were able to work so much harder from this pull position. I'll report back later and I'll see if I can get someone to video (although it is illegal to video at all city of Ottawa pools).

Dev

I'm headed to the pool today and will pay attention to where my upper back and neck are on head down. In my mind's eye I don't recall the water flowing over my back MUCH. I'm thinking just below the surface if at all. I do hear what your saying about pushing your chest down.

I fully agree that strong butterfly will destroy your legs. When I've busted through big fly sets my upper/outer quads have yelled at me.

I'll ask my kiddo if he'll do a lap of fly today head down and I'll video him. He's fast. He may give me evil eye though.

...strange you can't video. Can you video water polo games? I video my kid's polo games every time.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I literally have to keep my chest pushed down and my head way submerged as I pull with my lats and shoulders and feel the water flowing over the back of my neck and not let my neck surface (even though head is still down) for the recovery.


Well, the man-child doesn't keep his head submerged. It looks like his upper back from T7 or T8 comes up and out with the shoulders and arms and the head/neck stays flat and rises with the body. He swam this pretty relaxed (in a cool sub-15 seconds). I've seen him race down the pool in fly and he seems higher in the water than in this video. I would have asked for a sprint, but he just got a whooping for 4 quarters and was pretty knackered.






Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I've done lots of long distance open water fly (up to 2.4 miles at least twice, once with a full sleeved wetsuit on which was tiring as hell) and yes, overdoing the amplitude will mess you up. You need to learn to barely kick, and then that will keep you a lot more level. It's funny, because not kicking much is actually faster when going longer. One way to train yourself is with a pull bouy to keep your legs up, but then add the zoomer shortie fins so you get some propulsion and don't stall out.

Another thing is to slow down your turnover so you quit trying so hard. Then you'll need less oxygen. And then you can breathe every stroke, because there's a longer interval between strokes anyway. And then you're not having your issue in the first place. And you're also going faster because your amplitude is shallower. It all works out if you just slowwwww down. But that applies to long sets, not fast short ones.

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Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Sep 22, 17 10:28
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [SLOgoing] [ In reply to ]
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SLOgoing wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I literally have to keep my chest pushed down and my head way submerged as I pull with my lats and shoulders and feel the water flowing over the back of my neck and not let my neck surface (even though head is still down) for the recovery.


Well, the man-child doesn't keep his head submerged. It looks like his upper back from T7 or T8 comes up and out with the shoulders and arms and the head/neck stays flat and rises with the body. He swam this pretty relaxed (in a cool sub-15 seconds). I've seen him race down the pool in fly and he seems higher in the water than in this video. I would have asked for a sprint, but he just got a whooping for 4 quarters and was pretty knackered.





This is good and in line with what I am feeling. Head down, while pulling, neck is submerged, and while recovering while head is down, neck and shoulders rise and are out of the water (which of course then need to be because if the upper back and shoulder and neck are not at least at surface, you can't pull your arms around to recover). I think I am getting the timing correct. The up side is that on freestyle while one half of my back is below the water and the arm on that side is "diving" into the stroke, the other side of the back is out of the water with the arm recovering. Basically each side of my back is doing the opposing half of one armed fly if you can comprehend what I am trying to convey.
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
I've done lots of long distance open water fly (up to 2.4 miles at least twice, once with a full sleeved wetsuit on which was tiring as hell) and yes, overdoing the amplitude will mess you up. You need to learn to barely kick, and then that will keep you a lot more level. It's funny, because not kicking much is actually faster when going longer. One way to train yourself is with a pull bouy to keep your legs up, but then add the zoomer shortie fins so you get some propulsion and don't stall out.

Another thing is to slow down your turnover so you quit trying so hard. Then you'll need less oxygen. And then you can breathe every stroke, because there's a longer interval between strokes anyway. And then you're not having your issue in the first place. And you're also going faster because your amplitude is shallower. It all works out if you just slowwwww down. But that applies to long sets, not fast short ones.

I'm a bit too lazy to look for it but somewhere on youtube there's a video of Tom Dolan's 400 IM fly kick, and shows him just doing a single very easy kick. IIRC, Dolan (or someone) explains his strategy is to save energy for the rest of the race, not risking going too anaerobic in the first 100 of a 400 m race. Kinda same principle as yours for your 3800 m fly, which BTW sounds quite painful, actually. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Butterfly No Breath Stroke....(advice) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
ZenTriBrett wrote:
I've done lots of long distance open water fly (up to 2.4 miles at least twice, once with a full sleeved wetsuit on which was tiring as hell) and yes, overdoing the amplitude will mess you up. You need to learn to barely kick, and then that will keep you a lot more level. It's funny, because not kicking much is actually faster when going longer. One way to train yourself is with a pull bouy to keep your legs up, but then add the zoomer shortie fins so you get some propulsion and don't stall out.


Another thing is to slow down your turnover so you quit trying so hard. Then you'll need less oxygen. And then you can breathe every stroke, because there's a longer interval between strokes anyway. And then you're not having your issue in the first place. And you're also going faster because your amplitude is shallower. It all works out if you just slowwwww down. But that applies to long sets, not fast short ones.


I'm a bit too lazy to look for it but somewhere on youtube there's a video of Tom Dolan's 400 IM fly kick, and shows him just doing a single very easy kick. IIRC, Dolan (or someone) explains his strategy is to save energy for the rest of the race, not risking going too anaerobic in the first 100 of a 400 m race. Kinda same principle as yours for your 3800 m fly, which BTW sounds quite painful, actually. :)


Off topic from my original post, but I believe this is the video you are looking for at 2:33 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT8k9t2BF_g

I know what ZenTriBrett is saying about really slowing down the stroke. I think I have the slow long glide low amplitude version of fly nailed, it's when I try to sprint hard and not breath that the timing is off, but thanks to this thread, I am getting close.
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