Timberwolf, I don't mean to be discouraging but if you enter a race you would be dropped off the back after the first hill or second turn, say about 1 mile into the race. Maybe 4/5 race you would be lucky to hang on the back till the finish. To give you a better idea my 56 mile 1/2 ironman bike splits average about 23-24 mile per hour with a standard road bike and thats without drafting. Simply put I find 3/4/5 races to hard for me, and to dangerous.

You should be able to ride a very hilly 35 mile course in a pack with an average speed of about 23 miles per hour in order to consider a race in our neck of the woods.

Find some bike racer training group rides and try them out. The races are at least twice as hard as the hard racer group rides.

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I was, now I will tri again!
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Any time is a good time.
God Bless you my friend.

No way to quantify as each race plays out differently...its the top end speed to worry about when the sprints start...riding in then pack will get ya 23+ mph in a Cat 5...Cat 1's can finish at 35+mph

if your gonna race you need to get more miles in dood , i only race tri and i get (when the weather is good) about 200 per week and i wouldnt say thats ebough to race on

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Justin

It's very course dependent. Starting racers, no matter how good, start the bottom and work up from there. If you are fit you'll score enough points to upgrade quickly and move to the next faster category. Thankfully you'll also acquire additional pack riding skills as you progress so you'll be able to ride in the group at greater and greater speeds. It's less about average speed, and more about top end speed. The melt-off gets progressively faster with each category. I've also seen days were the cat5 pack would make up the 10 min gap on the cat4s in a road race because they were a bunch of eager lads all cranking at the front to show each other how fit they are, whereas the cat4s were just rolling along knowing things would get settled out on the big climb at mile 25. Sure enough, the 4s hit the climb, passed all the 5s, and cleaned out the group until there were just 5 guys standing for the last 20 mile stretch to the finish. As Goodtime recommended, take your road bike out to the weekend roadie ride and see how it goes. If you are getting shelled out the back, keep training. If you are in the mix at the end of the ride, go get a license and give it a whirl.

Goodtime, broll, J-Man--

Thanks for your thoughts. That's what I needed to hear. Not discouraging at all. Better to do a little research/hard work first.

Any other thoughts/comments are still welcome.

Brett

The only way you'll know is if you try it out. Join in with a roadie group, then jump into a Cat 5 road race when you feel comfortable with the bunch

You might surprise yourself. I know a few guys who race at a Cat 2 level on 3 training rides per week.

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I disagree with the guys trying to dicourage you. The reason most triathletes get dropped is that they lack the bike handling skills and tactical savy to hang in a bike race not the fitness. The average speed of a bike race is a poor indicator of the difficulty. Bike racing is all about being able to change speeds rapidly and often. There are many times when the group is just rolling along at a training pace and other times the group is strung out single file at 30+mph. Experience is a huge factor and knowing when to use your energy.Trithletes tend to think they can ride off the front or that drafting is cheating so"I'll ride out here in the wind by myself"

I was in a race just the other weekend and when someone launched an attack the group responded out of the saddle sprinting after the attackers. I saw one guy losing contact because rather that stand up and sprint he was trying to get lower and more aero and timetrial back onto the group. It was pretty obvious that the guy was a triathlete(one strap shoes, aero bike frame with the bars too low for road racing). Pretty strong rider but didnt realize that making a 10 second hard sprint at that point was the only way to get back on. The 2 minute TT he was trying was just wasted effort as we rolled away. If you can stay in the front third of the group the pace is much more even. At the back the group tends to slinky out and back causing you to constantly accelerate to catch back on. After years of road and crit racing I have finally gotten to the point where I feel like I can race smart and hang with the top guys. It used to baffle me why guys with far less fitness would get results and I would barely hang on. They always stayed out of the wind, didnt hit their brakes in turns and didnt chase down every single attack like I did.

I think hard bike races are the best training out there and alot of fun as well. At times its like motor pacing. I was in a break with Gord McCauly(NZ national champ) last year for a short while and we were going 35 mph down the backstretch. He was doing the work and I was hanging on for dear life. You just dont get that kind of speed out riding solo all the time.

There's this cool little phenomon known as "social facilitation".

http://samiam.colorado.edu/...sim/introsocial.html

Also, if you have access to a powermeter:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/powerprofiling.html

Another good one to read if you're thinking about bike racing:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/tips/match.html

Dave

Okay...

First, you have no option in USCF and or ABR but to race 4/5. If possible try to get into a 4 race as there are many freaks in 5 - to me it is not a matter of who is fastest sometimes, it is a matter of who does not crash. There are every spring many novice guys out there with the 4/5 boys that have no business being in a peloton at all with their minimal skills and inability to hold their line.

I certainly suggest staying with the lead group, not because you want to win, but because you want to have as few people in front of you to crash into. I also would try to stay to the sides as you can get out of the road easier if you need to. As you get more comfortable with a peloton you can start to play a bit more and try to make the race more interesting (I for one LOVE to attack on hills just to mess with people).

I would also say that you may not want to start with a Crit...Cat5 crits can be blood baths...I have a buddy who crashed 4 times in one (rain day) before the race was over. Each crash was into other fallen riders (and dont wear your fancy new shorts!).

All the warnings...road racing is a blast, start with a nice road race on an open course.. It is a whole other world out there...dog eat dog. I have myself pushed, shoved, dropped bottles and every other trick in the world to make that gap. Be prepared for someone to do that to you. Anyone who claims that road racing is not a contact sport may just be confused.



Oh...and there are a TON less issues with road rash in 3+, I prefer to play the 1-2 game.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Don't want to leave anybody out. Thanks to the rest of you who commented.

Brett

I think your solo average isn't too bad, but your mileage could be a little more. You need to develop a deep well to be able to go to when it gets hard. The hardest part, and what you need to prepare yourself for is the accelerations. If you TT and tempo ride, your ability to all of a sudden do 25- 30mph efforts for a few minutes, over and over again, will more than likely be your limiting factor. Many races start so hard you don't even have time to puke (so eat early) and usually settle in at some point. To train you should spend a little time sprinting, say 3-5 sprints on a given ride and spend another day at doing short 1/2 mile intervals to 1 mile, as fast as you can go. (25-30 mph) you'll train your ability to go so far into the red line and still pedal that when crunch time comes you'll actually have something left. Leg speed really pays rewards when racing and pushing hard with a tail wind can help simulate a fast moving pack, as it still takes effort, just in a different way. Either way racing will improve you as a cyclist and your ability to TT and suffer will take a boost. There will be no shortage of how much you can suffer in a bike race and if you get spit off the back you may not want to do it again. I can say that very few of those you will line up with actually finished their first race in the pack, and many were dropped time and time again. Show up fresh, ride hard and who knows, many 1/2's just showed up to try a race--like me.

There is no real speed correlation to category. I did some 5 races around Raleigh and the average speed here for 45 minutes was about 25 mph. If you can hold that 19 mph fairly comfortably on a road bike sans aerobars you can handle 25 mph in a pack. But speed depends a great deal on your region. A race in Raleigh might be faster than a race in Wilmington, but a lot slower than a race in San Diego.

Road races do tend to have less crashes but there are very few of them. The vast majority of USCF races are crits.

And unless you are buddies with your USCF offical, you will probably have to start as a 5.

Bike racing can be fun, but it was a little too "Type A" for my blood. You should give it a try and see what you think.

I find that its lack of a huge top end that limits triathletes. One of my roadie friends told me that cycling is more like a soccer game than a 10k. Its full of "jogging" and "sprinting". As a triathlete, we spend most of our time working our aerobic system, because that is all you use in a tri. Cyclists use a lot of the anaerobic system, and so occasionally the pace goes way up (in a crit, up a hill, people just showing off), and they have the ability to go real fast for a while, but we do not. But, they might fall apart after a few hours while we still have enough juice to run a marathon. Its the trade off between concentrating on the aerobic system and the anaerobic.

One thing to add, the average speed of a race doesn't correlate to the difficulty of the race. For a given group of riders, some of the hardest races are the ones with the slowest average speed. That's because in the slower race, the accelerations get much more violent, and the max speeds are higher.

I would highly recommend going out with a group of roadies before you jump in. The biggest hurdle is bike handling skills, especially in a crit, so the roadies will let you know if you need to work on anything.

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I think you'd be fine once you'd practiced riding w/a roadie group. What you have to get used to is the sudden, very hard intervals. Just stay on at all costs, soon there will be a rest.

I just started road racing this year and haven't found it too difficult. Of course I spent a few months training w/ roadies 1st. I've found that at least in the lower categories, triathletes are much more fit. When I ride with the roadies on very long courses or on long climbs, areas where sheer fitness comes more into play, I'm usually near the front, in front of almost all of the 3's, 4's, and 5's.

Perfect example: when I first started riding w/ roadies I really struggled on all the short power climbs but when I went out to do a long sustained climb w/ them, I was ahead of more than 1/2 the group.

When you first go out to ride w/ them there is a good chance you will be dropped, but it's not because you aren't as fit as they are, it's that your body is used to sustained semi-hard efforts, not easy efforts followed by 110% efforts, repeated ad nauseum.

Don't be scared to go out there. You just need to train like they do in order to race like they do.

The biggest challenge in the races (road) around here are the climbs. In the Madison Wi area there are lots of rollers and some fairly short to mid length steep climbs. Most of the competive riders, even cat 3s and 4s are very good climbers and a lot of the attacks happen on the steep or long climbs or at the the end of the climb when many of the racers are gassed. There are times when the peloton slows to 23 mph but then speeds up to over 30 mph and if you can't respond instantly then you are dropped like a bad habit. Crits are great fun but can be very dangerous, the mattresses tied around the stop signs and lamp posts are there for a reason. Here in Wisconsin we have a non-licensed race series called WiSport, over 20 races that have a lot of ex USCF guys as well as weekend warriors so you get a pretty big variety of talent. Lots of fun and less competetive than USCF. See if you can find a amature race to try out.

I'm just going to more or less repeat what everyone else has said. Riding with roadies is not hard because of the pace or distance, its hard because they like to accelerate, take a break, accelerate, take a break, and repeat for 50 miles or so.

I haven't gotten out to a USCF race yet, but I've raced with our local club during the winter and group ride w/ them. From what I can tell, roadies like to train like they race accelerate, rest .... Just hang on for dear life, after a couple rides you'll get used to it. After just a couple months with the roadies I feel like I'm so much stronger now that I was when I started. Hope to start racing after Tri season kicks off in May.

one number: 98watts...

read an article where it said that on an undulating stage a top TdF contender averaged 98watts for the ride...nearly everyone here can do 5h at 98watts.

Why is it so low
1. good sheltering, because of great handling skills...I know people that are avg. riders but are very good technically and can finish in the main bunch in a cat. a bit high for them

2. ability to generate high watts for short periods, recover and do it again. that's trainable...

go for it. You'll have fun.

Greetings,

After 20 years of Bike Racing experience (International and Domestic Cat 2) and 5 years competing in Ironman, I think I have I disagree with many of those who would try to dissuade you.

While there ARE differences in the requirements for each sport, there is also a lot of crossover which can benefit you in EITHER sport.

Bike racing is a fantastic alternative to triathlons and a good way for triathletes to:

1. Improve LT as a % of MHR

2. Develop explosive power (for passing riders at Tris)

3. Refine your bike handling skills

4. Get a different perspective on riding

I'd highly suggest that you simply start racing. As a cycling coach, the best advice I can give to a young racer is RACE OFTEN. You'll become smarter and more confident and that will give you faster gains (for BIKE RACING success) than ANY solitary training.

Feel free to hit me offline to discuss how to combine the two types of racing so you don't hinder your Tri performances.

To answer your original question...Average speed isn't really a key indicator. However, recognizing your power (sustained and max) limitations can help you formulate strategies for bike racing success.

Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas

www.bamcoach.com

www.wenzelcoaching.com

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I am a first year bike racer and here is my take. I participated in a series of learning criteriums that were mentored by experienced racers and I have to agree that the pace cannot be predicted. The race series was held at the same course and the average speed varied from week to week.

I'll also agree with the others on the 2 key things being the ability to make many accelerations and experience. In my races, the pack would accordion through corners. If riders towards the front of the group slow, the effect gets magnified through the pack. After making the corner, the pack would naturally accelerate back up to speed. It would be pretty normal to slow to say 16 mph through the corner and then immediately pick it up to 22-23 mph on the straightaways. Keep in mind we were doing this multiple times per lap and for many laps.

The more experienced riders would be able to jockey for better positioning at the front of the pack. In the front the accordion effect isn't as pronounced and if you do mess up and drop 15 positions, you still find yourself in the middle of the pack. Newer riders (speaking from experience) hanging off the back get gapped and then spend lots of energy chasing and trying to time trial their way back.

For example, I know 2 guys with comparable fitness levels. One guys is a novice racer and the other a former 1/2. The former 1/2 mentored at one of these races and sat in the front of the pack for most of the race looking like he had not a care in the world. Meanwhile, the novice is dangling off the back hanging on for dear life eventually getting dropped.

All in all, racing has been very satisfying so I would definitely encourage you to try it.

Ah, a topic I love...



It's all been said above, but I'll reiterate a few points:



- If you can, train with roadies before you go to a race. Expect to get dropped in your early rides, but don't accept it. Suck it up and hang on beyond what you think is your limit. The pace will go up and down. Don't ever let yourself think that you'll let them go and get back on after the hill, or after the speed let's up. The group will usually ease up eventually, and a couple of minutes of intense pain beats the slow death of trying to chase back onto a group.



- Cat. 5 is there for you to learn. If you're really too good for the 5's, the officials will ask (or require) you to upgrade. If not, then you're where you belong. When you are really ready to upgrade, it isn't that hard to accumulate enough points to move up.



- Don't try to prove your manhood in your early bike races. Cyclists LOVE riders who will sit on the front demonstrating their strength. They will admire your amazing fitness all day, then blow your doors off in the sprint.



- As has been said, try to stay in the first 1/4th to 1/3rd of the field. It takes a lot of concentration to do this without working too hard. It gets easier with experience. Of course, the more experienced the field as a whole, the harder it becomes. That's where most everybody wants to be. You have to be willing to defend your position in close quarters. That's pretty scary at first, but you'll find that the more experienced/comfortable riders will push you right out of your line, if you let them.



- Bike racing is not triathlon. (Yes, I am Master Of The Obvious!) I've heard so many triathletes complain that cyclists are anti-social A-holes. But you must remember that while triathlons tend to be touchy-feely, support your neighbor lovefests, where success has as many definitions as there are participants; bike races are cut-throat, winner-take-all competitions. There are no PR's in bike racing. The last finisher in a triathlon might be acheiving some personal goal worthy of an NBC human interest story. Second place in a bike race is the "first loser". Different strokes for different folks, eh?



I know I get long-winded when I start talking bike racing, so I'll stop here. There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, but it really comes down to paying your dues and gaining experience. Good luck!

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Happy trails,
Chris

Do some hard sprint intervals (mabe 30 seconds on, 2:00 mins off x 8 times, ascending, and then descending your gears) about twice a week and have some fun

One word of warning though, do not take record9tis' advice about dropping bottles or racing dirty. If you do that then people will hate you. I have personally tossed people into curbs and ditches becuase they recklessly and malicously threatened the safety of either me or my teammates. Have fun and try to stayed relaxed (keep your arms loose and bent).

I believe the that anecdote came from Dr. Asker Jeukendrup, who works/worked with the Dutch Rabobank squad. However, the version I heard was that it was a domestique on a flat stage, and since the team had no one in GC or jersey contention, he was able to just sit in and draft away (maybe on the last stage?). I assume it was measured via SRM, including the zero's...it would be even more "impressive" if it excluded the zero's.

Dave

Cat 5 races are a funny thing. not as much teawork or teams. I can't tell you how many times we started last and caught the cat 4's, 3 and once even the 1-2's. they lit it up even though we had taken 5 min out of them(and disappeared up the road) after I yelled "on the left we the real fast cat 1's you guys are posers."
Get a guy off the front by 10 feet everyone chases him down thinking the "break" will stick.
The race will probably go really fast uphill then slow and let everyone regroup.
I've been in 2 55mile cat 5 races where we across the finish line in under 2hrs!

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