Whats the height difference from saddle to bars?, you raised it 2 cm's? you also said that you changed your position after your original fitting, did you lower and move the saddle back? were you in a similar position before you adjusted it and you found it uncomfortable because you are not flexible enough to hold such an aero position?

Before and after photo's of the first fit would make it more interesting to see what adjustments you made, I am sure in the store it was comfortable but the fine tuning comes from trying to ride in it for a substantial period of time, something you simply cant replicate in a store.

In addition to Ken's website please visit our site tomorrow (Afternoon of 6/7 Saturday) for a look at the changes we made to Ken and some insight into why/how they were made.

www.bikesportmichigan.com

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

If that came off as a knock on you it was not meant to be.

The very first post stated he got fitted by "x", that it was not comfortable and that he tweaked it and then decided to go get fitted by you.

If there were photo's of the original fitting or measurements it would be interesting to see how similar they were and whether he made the changes because that position is to aggresive?

That said maybe the first position was simply incorrect but it would still be interesting to see the comparisons, especially given the people involved.

Off the top of my head i believe the height difference from the bottom of my saddle to the top of my stem is about 4 inches??? Just guessing.

I was originally fitted at Bicycle Sports in Chicago. I have some back issues with a disc that pops out from time to time when i am not careful. When I was fit out there my back was still not back to normal. So I think they fit me according to how my body felt that day, which was a bit crooked, they added an shim under my right cleat and a few other things. After a month or so my back FINALLY went back to a normal position, I found myself tossing out some bad power numbers and my pedal stroke became very uneven, at least that is what the Computrainer spinscan was telling me. I removed the cleat and put my saddle back to the position I had it set for before the fitting in Chicago. A friend of mine was interested in getting fit, he bought a Cervelo from Tom Wednesday, so I decided to tag along to get fitted once again. I belive my flexibilty is a strong suit, since standing or sitting I can put my head between my legs, so flexibility is not an issue.

I can not seem to find the other shots from my previous fitting.

I agree totally about needing to ride the fit before I can give it a thumbs up. I have an 80 mile ride planned Sunday. I will find out then how it feels after about 4 hours in the saddle.

Why does he do this, my friends? Because he can.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Rusty

Umm... yeah. I was kinda concerned that would not come cross correct....

Here's the link to the article on Ken's existing fit:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/...s/exisitingfit.shtml

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ken- I was wondering if you could say a few more words about your fit experience with Rich Ducar at BicycleSports Chicago? I live in Central Illinois and am considering going to him for my first fit. I also am considering the longer drive up to Bikesport Michigan to visit Tom. You explained the back issues that led to the second fitting, but how was the first? Did Bicyclesports do wattage analysis as part of the fit? If you don't want to post actual costs how about cost difference between the two shops? Is Bikesport worth an extra 6 hours of driving??

Thanks

Sweet

 
>Is Bikesport worth an extra 6 hours of driving??


This is what I'm confused about. Isn't Mission Bay Multisport in the Chicago area FIST-certified? I thought the idea behind FIST (or one of them) is that fit should be a repeatable process, not voodoo. That is, there exists a set of guidelines that inform that process and good, experienced, conscientious fitters should produce repeatable results on the same person (in the same condition) within a fairly narrow range of settings. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Tom does a fantastic job by all accounts, but folks seem to be making near-epic pilgrimmages to get fit by him. Does this mean customer service and fitting ability in bike shops throughout the rest of the country just suck? Is it such a crap shoot that people will gladly travel hundreds of miles for someone reliably reported to be of high quality? [If I had a bike shop and a guy who lives down the block just spent a weekend travelling a few hundred miles to get fit by someone else, I'd have to be asking myself, "Now why the f**k did that just happen?"]

I better chime in here...

There are some very, very good bike fitters out there. Dan and Fiona at Endurosport, Sid at Inside Out sports, Hank Iglesias (sorry for the spelling), Cobb, the guys at Mission Bay in Illinois and some others. These people have done a lot of critical thinking about bike fit and a lot of research on it. They have applied sound mechanical principles. There abilities are backed up with expereince, knowledge and results. When you ask them a question they can site empiracle, pragmatic reason why they have made a change to your position. It is not Voodoo. People are happy with their fits. They help people and improve their enjoyment of the sport. And they take responsibility for their work and the trust customers place in them- especially if they drive a long way for a fitting. They are constantly trying to improve. They are commited to the sport, not "part timers" fitting people while they go to night school to get a "real job". There are a lot of johnny-come-lately, self proclaimed "bike fit experts" who worked in a shop and have even stumbled through a couple local triathlons. They are just opportunists. It is unlikely many of them will still be fitting people to triathlon bikes 10 years from now, and they weren't doing it ten years ago. They are riding the wave.

If a person drives a long way for a fitting with me I take that very seriously. I use every tool at my disposal and strive for my best work. I am much more fussy about their position than they are. Customers almost always wind up staying in here longer than they'd like to. I won't let them leave until I am satisfied, even if they were satisfied an hour ago. Every fit that leaves our store is a rolling billboard. They have to be good.

There are other guys around the country, not many, but some, who do the same thing and even better. It isn't Voodoo. It is just plain old craftmanship and care.

I am no better, and in some cases not as good as, the guys I listed above. Fiona (Endurosport, Toronto)is a formally trained physical therapist. I don't have that knowledge. I wish I did. I do take this very, very seriously. It pays my bills (sometimes). It is how I made a living ten years ago, and how I will do it ten years from now. Others are just passing through. Triathlon bike fitting is hot right now, so now there are a new crop of "triathlon bike fit experts". some may become very gifted and capable bike fitters, an asset to the industry. But if they want to they need to commit to it and continue to strive for improvement and a greater degree of sophistication in fitting using new information, studies, tools and resources. FIST is one of the best to come along in a long, long time.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Actually I'd say that I think the issue with the way this was brought up was that Ken got an initial fitting and at that time he had some back issues.

The issues were resolved and the fit did not subsequently work so Ken changed it. Then rather than returning to the people that did the original fitting he went to Tom.

The way the post came off was that Tom was the better fit. What we dont know is whether in the same circumstances BS in Chicago would have given and equally satisfactory fit had Ken returned there rather than go to Tom.

I have met neither Ken not Rich but Tom posts here so he can articulate and state what he did, all we hear about BSports is that with the proviso that Ken had back issues the fit did not work.

As an aside I am sure that there are satisfied customers that have received fits from Rich bearing in mind that JC as far as I know almost head hunted him away from Mission Bay and his experience was the primary reason.

I think that we need to hear from people that have been fitted by both if the choice is to be made between them, not go for a fitting with one and then the other, I mean people that have been fitted by either.

Tom I am sure has benefitted from posting here in terms of raising his profile beyond MI, I cant say that for sure but maybe he reaches a greater audience as a result of this site?

No question. All good insights.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

 
That's good to hear, thanks for the reply. It seems that the missing ingredient in some people's fit experiences is peace of mind. A repeatable [that's key imo], principles-based process by quality fitters is the only way to alleviate that problem I think.

Hey pyker,

I think the wisdom or key to your observation is the term you used "principles based". I agree with that. Often times people feel they can fit a person by "observation".

While there definately needs to be a unified understanding of the principles of bike fit, road and triathlon, as you mentioned- it is important to realize a few points:
1. No two fits are alike, everybody brings unique physiological, biomechanical and emotional factors into their expereince on the bike.
2. Fit is dynamic and evolving with an athlete's fitness level, level of injuries, age, etc.
3. Other factors,

gotta go!

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The fit at Bicycle Sports.... They basically put me up on a Computrainer, to watch the wattage and played with this and that until we were all pleased with the body position. I think I paid 200 bucks at Bicycle Sports and 150 out at Tom's shop.



email me at kmantei@qtm.net for a more thorough explanation.

Tom, are there any FIST certified shops in the UK?

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Remember, keep in touch with yourself!

Hmm, I don't know. That's a question for Dan since he's the boss.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

 
>1. No two fits are alike, everybody brings unique physiological,
>biomechanical and emotional factors into their expereince on
>the bike.
>2. Fit is dynamic and evolving with an athlete's fitness level,
>level of injuries, age, etc.

yep, perfectly reasonable

>3. Other factors,

heh, yeah, fair enough on that count, too

So my final question is: is this repeatable? I realize FIST is a certification, not an accreditation, but still, if I go to 5 different FIST-certified shops will I, all other things being equal (suppose I'm physiologically, biomechanically, emotionally, fitnessally, injuriely, agedly similar each fitting), get pretty much the same results (or 5 completey different fittings)? I hope the former. Right?

I would suggest that going to five different FIST certified fitters would yeiled similar, possibly very similar, results. Part of this is based on how dedicated to the process the fitter is. You made a good characterization of some fitters as saying they practice "Voodoo". They do. They are shooting in the dark. Those results are more random and based on observational factors of other positions rather than empiracle studies such as the important Garside study highlighted in Dan' FIST manual. I refer to the manual several times throughout the day to site reasons why I am doing what I am doing with a client. Fitters owe customer's an explanation as to why chages have been made in their position. Fitters need to make a compelling argument for their actions. In short, is the process repeatable from one athlete to another- yes, I believe that (done correctly and allowing for differences with customers) largely that it is.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I like the photos showing the angles. They seem very useful and I'm considering doing the same with my bike fit photos. But I have one question. Where should the pedals be when measuring the hip angle and leg extension angles? In "her" photo the cranks are almost vertical. In "his" photo they are about 10 degrees off.

Thanks,

-Adam

You noticed a problem with the technical validity of this technique of fitting people, of which there are several more:

1. The photos are "dynamic", that is to say, the person is actually pedaling when the frame is shot to prevent them from "posing" in the perfect position. As a result, it is extremely difficult to get identical photos or photos of the person at the identical phase of the pedal stroke. The best I can hope for is close.
2. The "scale" of the photos is not 100% identical, i.e., the camera is not in exactly the same place (same angle, distance) from the subject in each photo.
3. It is not 100% perfect, but much better than previous techiques.

To directly answer your (very good) question, we look for 150 degrees of leg extension using a goniometer with the foot at the 6 O'clock position of the pedal stroke. I noted that Dan and Fiona at Endurosport mentioned they prefer to measure the joint angle at full extension, which actually (as they pointed out) occurs just slightly before 6 O'clock in the pedal stroke. Full leg extension occurs when the leg is in line with the seat tube at the "apogee" of the pedal stroke. Measured there, I would expect to see an extension greater than 150. Also, we observe and listen to the person's pedal stroke and also ask them scripted questions about their neurological (feel) feedback of their saddle position. Observing the pedal stroke from the front and rear to look for rocking on the saddle is also a useful tool in determining optimal saddle height. Good observation. thank you for looking so carefully.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Without being able to pinpoint the exact location where the knee joint is, the femur hits the hip etc etc these angles are "ball park", probably pretty close but as you cant pin point the exact location the scale could distort things a couple of degree's either way is my guess.

I suspect that as this is being refined rather than relying on angles it would be more on ensuring all points of contact are consistent relative to each other so that if on one person with longer legs and another with a longer torso short legs the same principles can be used to fit the person with vastly different numerical values.

On the other hand maybe the angles are right and thats the way people are fitted........................meanwhile back in the bat cave............

the female being positioned might want to pedal with a flat foot when being positioned, instead of toes down, before measuring knee angle

>the female being positioned might want to pedal with a
>flat foot when being positioned, instead of toes down,
>before measuring knee angle

Shouldn't she pedal however she pedals? That is, shouldn't one pedal the same way for a fitting that one does on the road?