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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [QCTri] [ In reply to ]
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QCTri wrote:
Standing barefoot I can touch the ground with the tips of my fingers without bending my knees. The fitter mentioned my tight hip flexors when laying on a bench and bringing a bent knee towards my chest.

FWIW: I'm basically a 6' wooden board. I have a bashed up cervical spine (literally) and I only get to probably 6" off the ground when bending over. And I still ride with 10cm drop.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I don't have much experience fitting inflexible people. Is the problem that a fitter put him in that high position or something else?

Is Inflexibility even a problem?

I'm getting 144° knee angle (saddle not too high but I can see the toe down)
Hip to Femur of 95° which is a little open
Body to forearm of 80° (ok that's a little short)

it's rarely a problem, in my experience. which means it's sometimes a problem. just, it's rare. it's not this fellow's problem, is my guess.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

i wrote that here. also, i told you guys how to identify good fitters. ask to see their work. they ought to have a portfolio. there is a field on our fitters database and you can search for those who ONLY have that portfolio field populated.

now, if a fitter does not have that field populated, don't go to him until he does. it's that simple. if he doesn't have a listing on our database, what is it the other 684 fitters know that he doesn't? at this point, if there's that many fitters who've got a listing there, when is it the fitter's lack of professionalism rather than a limit to our outreach that's to blame?

i can only provide so many tools for you guys! if you don't use them; don't know they exist; don't tell your friends/club/FB group they exist; hold fitters accountable to update and use the tools; if you don't read the articles; go in to a fitter with a list of deliverables; ask in advance on the forum for recommendations; i don't know what else i can do for y'all!

I only see 9 fitters who have a portfolio listed unless I am missing something. Jim Manton doesn't have a portfolio and neither does Dave Luscan. Both do excellent fits.

Perhaps it needs to be a requirement of the FIST certification/recertification to maintain a portfolio?

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Slowman wrote:


i wrote that here. also, i told you guys how to identify good fitters. ask to see their work. they ought to have a portfolio. there is a field on our fitters database and you can search for those who ONLY have that portfolio field populated.

now, if a fitter does not have that field populated, don't go to him until he does. it's that simple. if he doesn't have a listing on our database, what is it the other 684 fitters know that he doesn't? at this point, if there's that many fitters who've got a listing there, when is it the fitter's lack of professionalism rather than a limit to our outreach that's to blame?

i can only provide so many tools for you guys! if you don't use them; don't know they exist; don't tell your friends/club/FB group they exist; hold fitters accountable to update and use the tools; if you don't read the articles; go in to a fitter with a list of deliverables; ask in advance on the forum for recommendations; i don't know what else i can do for y'all!


I only see 9 fitters who have a portfolio listed unless I am missing something. Jim Manton doesn't have a portfolio and neither does Dave Luscan. Both do excellent fits.

Perhaps it needs to be a requirement of the FIST certification/recertification to maintain a portfolio?

perhaps so. but i have something else in mind i'm working on.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I also tried to start a thread on this today that will hopefully gain some traction, but hasn't yet. I think most people's first inclination is to do a search on the forum rather than go through the avenues you have suggested such as the main page and searching the Local Listing section especially for people who may be new or don't come around as often and don't get to see all of the different suggestions you and others have made on how to get a good fit. I am one of these people but once I started hanging around for a bit and doing lots of reading I was able to pick up on all of the suggestions made through the knowledgeable people here.

Check out https://elrenoroguetriathlon.yolasite.com
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I just linked a small one.

Going nowhere in the pool? We can help.



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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I only see 9 fitters who have a portfolio listed unless I am missing something. Jim Manton doesn't have a portfolio and neither does Dave Luscan. Both do excellent fits.

i predict at some point these two excellent fitters will have published portfolios. here are some of my fits, done at slowtwitch road shows. look at the position of the fellow who started this thread. ask yourself if it's likely he'd have ended up with his fit if i was his fitter. further, after he saw these videos, prior to seeing me, don't you think he'd have as a reasonable expectation that his fit would look like these others?

don't you think that's a reasonable standard for bike fitters to adhere to? otherwise, as you and others rightly put it, how do you know in advance of paying your money what it is you're buying?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
stevej wrote:
I only see 9 fitters who have a portfolio listed unless I am missing something. Jim Manton doesn't have a portfolio and neither does Dave Luscan. Both do excellent fits.

i predict at some point these two excellent fitters will have published portfolios. here are some of my fits, done at slowtwitch road shows. look at the position of the fellow who started this thread. ask yourself if it's likely he'd have ended up with his fit if i was his fitter. further, after he saw these videos, prior to seeing me, don't you think he'd have as a reasonable expectation that his fit would look like these others?

don't you think that's a reasonable standard for bike fitters to adhere to? otherwise, as you and others rightly put it, how do you know in advance of paying your money what it is you're buying?

Dan, I don't need to look at your portfolio to know you would have done an excellent job on the OP's fit if he had gone to you. Same goes for Jim, Dave L, Ian M, and Trent Nix. They are all excellent fitters. I have done a lot of reading about bike fitting (mostly on here in the forums and your articles) and I have a pretty good idea of who I would trust to touch my bike fit and its not very many people (maybe 6 or 7 in the whole country).

Yes I think it is a completely reasonable standard to adhere to. I think it should be a requirement. I think you are misunderstanding my original comment in my first reply. I meant it to say that the number of fitters who had portfolios uploaded currently was not enough. But I knew there were excellent fitters out there that didn't have portfolios uploaded. We should be doing everything in our power to get fitters to upload their portfolios so people like the OP can make an informed decision when choosing a fitter.

A personal challenge I am having right now is that a lot of folks local to me (south florida) are asking me where they should get a bike fit. I personally flew out to Jim Manton in Cali for a fit but I realize not everyone is willing to do that. I have seen wayyy too many poor fits by the local fitters here. It's led me to not trust a single fitter in my state as I have yet to see a good fit by someone in Florida (it may be out there.... I just haven't personally seen it). A portfolio of those fitters in my area would be a huge benefit so I could make an informed recommendation to others. Until then, I'm not sure who or what to recommend. I did just see that Dave Luscan will do a skype/video fit with people remotely. Until I know for certain someone can do a good fit locally, I'm tempted to send my friends to Dave even if it's just over skype/video.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I just linked a small one.

Great. I personally don't need to see it as I've seen your work with Eric. But perhaps others may want to see it. Keep up the great work.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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i think i understand your point. and for YOU, yes, you know who to trust. but as you point out, many others don't (perhaps including the OP). hence my push to get fitters to adhere to a reasonable standard (such as publishing their work). but it's a long slog, and the reason only 9 (actually i think it's 13) have published portfolios is because YOU all (you, en masse) haven't required it.

if enough folks started telling fitters that they're not going to get any business unless they publish videos of their work (which isn't hard) they would start publishing videos of their work.

i wrote about this thread today. the article on the front page, i started and stopped it several times over the last 2 months, but today's thread finally got me off my duff.

nothing is static in this world. bike fitting moves forward. imperatives for bike fitters move forward. but that's the transitory stuff that changes quickly, with technology. what changes are phones. what doesn't, or shouldn't, change as quickly is communication. what changes is how we remanufacture the ability to perform returns on unwanted purchases. what doesn't change is the concept of good customer service.

the online portfolio is something fitters can now do. the concept behind that portfolio - granting customers comfort that you know what you're doing before they spend the money, like the OP did - that's old school customer service.

do you want to know the REAL reason fitters don't publish their work? too many of them don't have good work to publish. our portfolio field is an unmasking. it's a tool, but it's also a statement we're making. were i the end users in triathlon, that's a tool you can wield, if you care enough to use it.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think if a fitter is producing good work, they wouldn't be afraid to show it, so it should already be quite easy to find on social media. Want to see my work? Go to Instagram or Facebook. Heck, anyone and everyone can see how I fit one of the best triathletes in the world just last week; it's right there for the world to see or critique. Do I post every fit? Nah, I don't have time for that, and struggle to post on social media as is, but it's not hard to see, as you state, there's an orthodoxy to all my fits, and the fits from those I've taught. They all look fairly similar for a reason, and their foundation are all FIST. It might be FIST on steroids, but it's FIST at the core.
As for education and certifications? Man, I wish I had the answer to that. I certainly know how frustrating it is to see someone seemingly ignore what you've taught them. I will admit, though, I don't think any client has ever come to me because of a certain certification I've acquired. I know there are a few, and I mean just a few, who've come because I use Retul, but the overwhelming number of athletes who come to me are due to word of mouth. This is especially true of triathletes. I always joke that if you conduct a good fit for a Masters Crit Racer, he's not going to tell a soul. Not his teammates, not even his own mother; he want's no one else to have the same advantage. You conduct a good fit for a triathlete, and they tell everyone; it's all over social media!
Now, I'll be honest, I'm not super motivated to post up a portfolio on this site, but if it encourages others, in some small way, to do the same, I'll do it over the next few days.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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OP...

You have a number of VERY credible fitters on this thread who have told you that your fitter did not do the job you paid him to do. I would should him this thread and ask for a refund, or at the very least, a refit. If he does not refund or refit, call him out on it. You paid 20% of what you want to pay for a new bike on something that is not worth anything.

I would think you likely would have ended up with a better position if "fitted" by an experienced bike store technician just eyeballing your position. And that's not a good thing!
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I understand fitters these days use social media (Instagram) to show off their work and it is the perfect tool for that.
It is probably for the simplicity of posting and also the wider / different reach through that media.

The database makes it easy enough to just post a link.
If the fitters are too lazy to even update the database or do not post/have SM accounts to show their work then I would question whether they are fit (pun intended) to run a business.
Last edited by: BrickMick: Nov 27, 17 18:11
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the hijack but I have short question to the bike fitters gathered in this thread:


trentnix wrote:
... So unless you are ridiculously long-legged, short torsoed, and have ...


I see the long-leggedness mentioned a lot in fits. I have never found an explanation or formula that explains what makes you long-legged/short-torsoed and what short-legged/long-torsoed. That in my opinion plays majorly in Dan's mentioning about Orthodoxy. Isn't that the first parameter to find the first-shot-fit for a client walking in a fit studio before maybe flexibility and / or personal preferences/comfort?
Quote from Dan's article from today: "What we have are micro differences, but macro samenesses"

Anybody care to share some wisdom? What is the normal leg/torso ratio?
I am 6-2 with 35.8" crotch. What am I?
Last edited by: BrickMick: Nov 27, 17 18:22
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:

Fact of the matter is, that fit isn't terrible based on what I see day-in, day-out. It just isn't very good.

If that isn't terrible, can you give an example of a fit that is?

BrickMick wrote:
I am 6-2 with 35.8" crotch. What am I?

A horse?
Last edited by: MattyK: Nov 27, 17 18:53
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
If that isn't terrible, can you give an example of a fit that is?
Challenge accepted!



Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Youtube
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:
MattyK wrote:
If that isn't terrible, can you give an example of a fit that is?
Challenge accepted!
Wow. Just wow.
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Jeepers a shop fitted someone like that?!!

I see the op has been retul fitted so you would think, at the least, that would take some guess work out for fitters?!!! But the fit seems way too high on the front as is the saddle height as mentioned.
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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coates_hbk wrote:
Jeepers a shop fitted someone like that?!!

I see the op has been retul fitted so you would think, at the least, that would take some guess work out for fitters?!!! But the fit seems way too high on the front as is the saddle height as mentioned.
Hard to say - people "adjust" their fit all the time so it's impossible to know whether a shop is really to blame.

I've seen a few good fits I've done look awful due to rider tinkering, other shops "expert" tinkering, or just crap posture.

And to your point - Retul can be used to take out the guess work, but it has to be used correctly. It's just a tool, and requires the application of knowledge and skill to be used correctly. It wasn't, in this case.

I was a "fit by numbers" fitter when I was new to fitting and I can look back on a lot of my old fits and see good results because of it (there were some poor fits mixed in too, for sure). But I also aggressively listened to and incorporated rider feedback and compared my fits to better fitters, and over time I was able to learn enough to understand a little bit about why the numbers worked.

I tend to react negatively when someone tells me bike fit is an art - it's a science, for sure. If there is artistry, it's convincing a rider to defeat their confirmation bias that leads them to prefer a poor positionor manipulating existing equipment to get the result I'm looking for.

Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Youtube
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter
Last edited by: trentnix: Nov 27, 17 20:13
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [BrickMick] [ In reply to ]
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BrickMick wrote:
Anybody care to share some wisdom? What is the normal leg/torso ratio?
I am 6-2 with 35.8" crotch. What am I?

You are nearly perfectly average
For someone your height


Peoples legs get longer as they get taller (presumably you only need so much space for organs)
Note that the trendlines make it look like Women have longer legs at the same height - the suppressed zeroes on the graph are magnifying a tiny difference. The in-gender variation is much larger than the between gender variation so it's worthless to make any generalisations about differences between genders.


Connect - Velogic Fit l Facebook l Twitter
Or - Speedtheory l Facebook l Twitter
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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We must be allowed to use wow, just wow on this??
Though I think I've fitted some people who've been to the same place (or one that employs the same philosophy, given the distance I am from your market)


Connect - Velogic Fit l Facebook l Twitter
Or - Speedtheory l Facebook l Twitter
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is one of the problems with assuming that technology— in this case, Retul — takes the place of fitting expertise. Is your fitter certified by a reputable school (like Slowtwitch)? Does he/she have an education in physiology? Are there triathletes who can vouch for the fitter? If not, you may be wasting your time and money. If yes, fitting can be the best thing you ever did for your cycling.

In this case, the other experts here have already pointed out some of the problems: (1) ability to touch your toes means you have at least average flexibility in low back/hamstrings, which are normally the muscles that limit aerobar drop; (2) based on the photo your seat is quite a bit too high — I would drop it 1-2 cm, which means you can lower the frame & pad stack by 1-2 cm even with no change in torso angle. Keep in mind that, as you learn to ride aero, you’ll probably stretch out slightly, which means it makes sense to start with a short stem angled up — then later you can move to a longer, flatter stem.

Doug Baumgarten
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Now, I'll be honest, I'm not super motivated to post up a portfolio on this site, but if it encourages others, in some small way, to do the same, I'll do it over the next few days.

Just link your instagram page as your portfolio.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
trentnix wrote:
MattyK wrote:
If that isn't terrible, can you give an example of a fit that is?
Challenge accepted!

Wow. Just wow.

He is more aero than the OP :-)
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Re: Bike Fit: Unusually tall stack... now what? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I'd never looked at it to realize it's a link. Kept seeing it referred to as "uploading" so assumed you had to upload videos in to your profile, which is something I wasn't the least bit motivated to do. Tells you how often I look at the profile.
Never has someone said to me, "Yeah, I was looking at your Fitter profile on Slowtwitch and decided to book an appointment."
Honestly, I don't look or maintain any "Fitter Profile" anywhere. It's just never brought me business. Does Retul still list me as an instructor? Master Fitter? Asshole? I don't know and don't care. Not enough eyes looking.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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