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Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop
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http://www.bicycling.com/enough

Depressing stats and stories, and after the negative attitudes displayed towards cyclists by some legislators in Montana I find it hard not to let my id loose to lash out irrationally. Why is sharing the road so difficult?

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if I would call it a conspiracy, but it certainly feels like that - for motorists, and against everyone else who uses the road. For the longest time, almost EVERYTHING in North America revolved around the car. That is slowly starting to change, but you can't reverse decades of behavior and culture over a short period of time.

Even the way the news of fatalities of cyclists is reported is biased IN FAVOUR OF and thinking more about the motorists, than the pedestrian or cyclist that is hurt or killed. There was a cyclist killed recently on River Road in Vancouver (a popular riding route). In the media reports I saw, both the police reports and the reporters stories seemed more concerned to be getting the news across the River Road was still open to traffic and that River Road is a safe road to drive. The death of the cyclist? It was as if the driver had hit a road cone! It seemed of little importance! THIS is the truly shocking and worrying part about all this.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to understand this, I cannot recommend "Traffic" by Tom Vanderbilt highly enough. It's a depressing read as a cyclist in many ways, but it does help to explain things.

https://www.amazon.com/...ding=UTF8&btkr=1

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed - "Traffic" is a Must-Read if you want to understand that behavioral and cultural angle I mentioned above, and why, things are not going to get better sooner.

In Ontario, this spring the Provincial Government is supposed to be tabling Vulnerable Road User Legislation, that will start to shift some of the responsibility back to motorists, for serious injuries sand fatalities of vulnerable road users (cyclists & pedestrians). There is expected to be fierce push-back from automobile groups. The legislation and laws will not pass easily - but it's a start. A start for drivers to realize, that for too long, they have been able to essentially walk away from the mayhem, destruction and carnage that has resulted from there frequent negligence while driving!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Much as I despise and fear the situation as it is, I don't have much hope that anything will actually change. Keep in mind that for close to 80 years, drunk driving was a "boys will be boys" and "everybody does it now and then" thing. It wasn't until the 1980's that a serious effort was made to change the public perception that a DUI death was "just an unfortunate accident" that "could happen to anybody". It has taken two generations to educate people to understand that DUI death is a form of homicide - not "bad luck". I believe I once read that over 20,000 people a year were being killed in the US by DUI in mid century. 800+ cyclists a year are not nearly as noticeable a number. When combined with the fact that we are widely despised and considered a huge nuisance by a majority of drivers (I get seriously pissed off myself sometimes) I don't see some MADD type uprising against cyclecide converting the public anytime soon.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Hi all,
If I threaten someone with a baseball bat, that is a crime. If I injure or kill another person with a weapon, that is a crime. I wish that there was a group prosecuting all the times that a cyclist was run off a road or verbally threatened with a deadly weapon (4000 lb SUV). If you break the law and hit someone else, you are at fault and should be prosecuted.

That said, we as a group are not good at following the laws ourselves. I'm pointing the finger at myself also. I've been on lots of group rides where stop signs and lights were ignored. We all do or did it at some point. As a group, cyclists need to show motorists that we respect the law and deserve a place in the road.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Wonder is this fuels the gravel road riding. I know for me I ride almost exclusively gravel. Rarely see a car and people typically drive slower on gravel.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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KWTri wrote:
Hi all,
If I threaten someone with a baseball bat, that is a crime. If I injure or kill another person with a weapon, that is a crime. I wish that there was a group prosecuting all the times that a cyclist was run off a road or verbally threatened with a deadly weapon (4000 lb SUV). If you break the law and hit someone else, you are at fault and should be prosecuted.

Preach brother! :-)

KWTri wrote:
That said, we as a group are not good at following the laws ourselves. I'm pointing the finger at myself also. I've been on lots of group rides where stop signs and lights were ignored. We all do or did it at some point. As a group, cyclists need to show motorists that we respect the law and deserve a place in the road.

Do you think this is blaming the victim a little? The fact that I run a stop sign now and then doesn't mean you were asking for it when a person hits you with their car.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The fact that I run a stop sign now and then doesn't mean you were asking for it when a person hits you with their car.

It doesn't BUT it certainly doesn't create a nice warm and fuzzy feeling for cyclists in general in the minds of the motorists that witness it. I'm not saying it's right but it's human nature.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Economist wrote:
Wonder is this fuels the gravel road riding. I know for me I ride almost exclusively gravel. Rarely see a car and people typically drive slower on gravel.

I think it might be part of it but didn't the gravel cycling start in the midwest in low traffic areas anyway? They just happen to have lots of lengthy gravel roads. I bought a gravel bike this year (my road bike only could handle size 25c tires) as I have a bunch of gravel riding in my area and want to take advantage of that. I'll still do road riding by I pick and choose safer areas for sure
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
Economist wrote:
Wonder is this fuels the gravel road riding. I know for me I ride almost exclusively gravel. Rarely see a car and people typically drive slower on gravel.


I think it might be part of it but didn't the gravel cycling start in the midwest in low traffic areas anyway? They just happen to have lots of lengthy gravel roads. I bought a gravel bike this year (my road bike only could handle size 25c tires) as I have a bunch of gravel riding in my area and want to take advantage of that. I'll still do road riding by I pick and choose safer areas for sure

I know for me personally gravel riding has taken over because I'm nervous about riding on road. Still have some road to get to gravel. I like gravel because there are just a ton of gravel roads by me (I live in farm country) and the gravel roads seem to have much steeper and longer climbs. I'll drive to the Barry Roubaix route just for the climbs and safety (knock on wood).

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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yeah but its in a cycling rag... which means only some cyclist will read it.

needs to be in People in the checkout lines... TMZ on TV, Kardashins , Sportcenter ..housewifes of this and that .. you get the idea.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Actually if you are interested in where this attitude has come from then this podcast is worth listening too on your next long run

http://thedollop.libsyn.com/159-pedestrianism


its called the Dollop - two american comedians that cover american history in an entertaining way. and to summarised, yes it was a conspiracy theory, but this way it will take you 15-20km to figure it out.


enjoy
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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KWTri wrote:
As a group, cyclists need to show motorists that we respect the law and deserve a place in the road.

I agree with Damon on this point. I don't think there's any need to treat motorists like some esteemed paternal figure whose approval and respect we need to earn.

Motorists cause immense daily carnage to other motorists, pedestrians, and, of course, cyclists. Around 100 fatalities in the U.S. per day or around 3300 per day worldwide. And we have to show them we "deserve" a place in the road? Screw that.

Don't get me wrong. There is a lot of bad behavior by cyclists. And I think instruction in law and etiquette is important to learn and constantly reinforce with cyclists. I just don't think we have anything to prove to motorists before deserving equal access to infrastructure or fair treatment in the legal system.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [KWTri] [ In reply to ]
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If I threaten someone with a baseball bat, that is a crime. If I injure or kill another person with a weapon, that is a crime. I wish that there was a group prosecuting all the times that a cyclist was run off a road or verbally threatened with a deadly weapon (4000 lb SUV). If you break the law and hit someone else, you are at fault and should be prosecuted.


Here's what happens locally in Ontario and I believe other parts of Canada. If a cyclist or pedestrian is hit - and there is serious injury or even a fatality, often what happens is the lawyer for driver pushes hard to get a Careless Driving charge and an admission of guilt from the driver of that charge. This removes any criminality from the situation. This is assuming no alcohol involved. It may not even go to trial in this case!

This is why you can have a fatality, the motorist say "Yes" to Careless Driving, and some BS default excuse "I did not see them", and they walk away with a fine, and maybe s few demerit points. This happens over and over and over again. Of course the cycling community is outraged and incredulous, because again, motorists are getting off-the-hook for any real serious responsibility for negligent behaviour.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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I was hit by a pickup truck in 2014 while on a touring bike. I had gone about 33,000 km through 26 countries by that time, and had bicycled in some pretty busy areas (Mumbai, Jakarta, Bangkok) so was well accustomed to traffic.

I was hit on a normal country road with reasonable traffic about 30 km from Bend, Oregon. There was a car behind the pickup truck and they witnessed the whole thing. The driver in the pickup admitted to the police that he didn't see me despite the large and bright pannier bags on my bike. Later he tried to change his story but was already on record for admitting fault and his statement was corroborated by the trailing car.

I survived with a concussion, 2 collapsed lungs, 12 broken ribs, needed surgery on my knee and had extensive bruising. It has been over 2.5 years and I still can't run and am just getting full range of motion back in my shoulder. He was charged with "Unsafe passing of a person operating a bicycle" (ORS 811.065). It is a Class B traffic violation and carries a maximum fine of $360.

Something is a little out of balance.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
If you want to understand this, I cannot recommend "Traffic" by Tom Vanderbilt highly enough. It's a depressing read as a cyclist in many ways, but it does help to explain things.

https://www.amazon.com/...ding=UTF8&btkr=1

This is a great book...I have often quote from it. Kind of scary how humans aren't even biologically wired to be able to handle speeds 25+ MPH!

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Something is a little out of balance.


What I'd like to see and needs to be done is someone or some entity look into the hundreds and thousands of incidents like yours, and the more serious ones where there has been a fatality of either a cyclist or a pedestrian. Do a bit of grand and thorough review across North America

My gut tells me that things are grossly out of balance - that thousands of motorists have really got away with minor charges, or no charges in many cases, when and where they have left in their wake, mayhem, carnage, and ruined lives, and where I am sure if they looked into it in more detail, there really has been a significant amount of negligence on the part of drivers, but that the whole of the system as it is set up now, is meant to almost always relieve drivers of any form of responsibility for their actions!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Last time I heard (and as always, I could be wrong), something on the order of 30,000 motorists are killed each year in the USA. While 2 cyclists killed per day is too many, 30,000 motorists is WAAAAAY too many.

It's not just in the US that motorists are irresponsible (ie they become complacent, cocooned in their 5 star rated vehicles, and don't take their responsibilities seriously enough) and kill cyclists, they kill other motorists as well. Drinking, cell phones, tiredness, boredom on long straight roads, etc etc, all combine to make it much more dangerous to operate a motor vehicle than people accept.

Unfortunately, nothing will change until motorists change. They/we, will not change until we are personally impacted by the ramifications of our actions. Killing a cyclist has pretty much no consequence in many countries. Killing another motorist also carries little actual consequence in most cases.

I contend that 99.999999% of events currently labelled "accidents" are not accidents at all and are entirely preventable. Whether your car is badly maintained, you're distracted, you're travelling too fast for the conditions/your skill level, etc etc, ALL those things are under your control. If a piano falls out of the sky and lands on your car, that's an accident. If you hit someone or something, that is entirely your fault. If you cause someone else to hit someone or something, again you're at fault. As soon as people take responsibility for their own actions, rather than trying to point the finger at someone else, we'll be better off. Only when repurcussions (fines, loss of licence, jail time) become serious enough will we take notice.

In many cases if you crash into someone and kill them, your insurance, that only costs a small amount of money (a few hundred?) will cover the costs. IF you are travelling way too fast, the speeding ticket will cost more than the excess/deductible if you kill someone. While speeding should incur some penalty, it's just wrong that the penalty for killing someone is less than simply driving too fast. When the personal cost of killing someone with your car costs you too much to consider, THEN you will drive to avoid that from happening, at all costs.

There is no one 'silver bullet' solution to eliminating the road death statistics, but we need to do a lot of things a lot differently that what we do now. Fixing the laws would be a good place to start. Then enforcement would be nice too.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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I have no answer for Montana anymore. I just this afternoon posted a suggestion in a group regarding a route through a stretch of somewhat 'bad' road in western MT, and a person from outside the group responded to me directly. The response was polite but included:

"Do warn riders though that people on the secondary highway drive pickups with big mirrors that stick out quite far to accommodate vision when pulling stock trucks. I ride a bike around here, and give them a wide berth. Be courteous, they live here, and it's their livelihood."


For sure. I'd hate to offend someone by leaving my gore on their rear view mirror.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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Self driving cars. That is the only solution. Don't let people control a 4 ton instrument of death.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
Self driving cars. That is the only solution. Don't let people control a 4 ton instrument of death.
Yep, or even better - start designing our environment so we don't have to depend on cars. Europe is good in some places, bad in others. Most urban areas are perfectly navigable without a car. The US is appalling. It's been planned on the assumption that everyone will use cars to get around and it's ridiculous.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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Bikers pose a challenge to self-driving cars because they sometimes act like vehicles, and sometimes like pedestrians. It's an interesting issue, and now when I'm biking, I try to be really clear about which "mode" I'm in [I am pretty much always a vehicle, in my mind and actions], and when I'm acting like a pedestrian.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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I can't say I agree with your view that almost nothing is an accident just because it could have been avoided. What's your definition of an accident? If it's something that can't be foreseen or prevented by any means, then sure, most events aren't accidents, but I don't see what that changes.
  • Hit by lightning? - You shouldn't be outside without a Faraday suit.
  • Bitten by a shark? - You should never swim in the sea.
  • Killed by a tsunami? - Why were you near the coast?
  • Hit by a car? - Why were you near a road?
  • Got food poisoning? - Why don't you have a personal food taster and did you inspect the restaurant's kitchen before ordering?

Virtually all eventualities can be foreseen as a possibility but that doesn't mean we should take precautions against all eventualities. We have to weigh up the risk, often with limited information. But we can't live risk free. The problem is when it comes to driving our risk analysis doesn't work very well.

There are three problems with driving cars that make them an especially risky proposition:
  1. It takes very little to cause a collision and the consequences are often huge.
  2. In most developed countries, the majority of adults can drive
  3. We drive very regularly

This results in a relatively high risk activity that has become normalised and because most of society can imagine themselves as a driver, they are inclined (subconsciously) to favour a view that removed their responsibility.
Remember when you learned to drive? I'm guessing you were aware of everything that could go wrong? I remember being paranoid that a child could pop out in front of me from behind every parked car..... However, after driving all my adult life and never having this happen, the fear has gone. I still know it could happen but I'm not nervous the whole time. I go faster, I look less, I assume everything will be alright like it's always been before.

So, we all know things can go wrong, but are familiarised to the risk until it fades from our conciousness. We're academically aware of it but not viscerally aware of it. We insulate ourselves from anxiety by pretending the dangers are not real. And incidents generally happen rarely enough that most of us get away with that. Some of us don't.
People should not drive cars as a matter of routine transport and expect not to have large numbers of deaths. I think we've done suprisingly well at limiting the fatalities to other drivers, pedestrians, etc. That doesn't make it something we should accept.
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Re: Bicyling Magazine: This has got to stop [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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This is not a recent phenomenon and it's really not a car vs. bike thing. There is a much larger and pervasive psychology that takes hold when drivers get behind the wheel of their car. This video from 1950 sums it up well:



Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: May 12, 17 9:42
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