Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Bahrain politics
Quote | Reply
usually we discuss politics in the "lavender room", the forum that keeps off-topic (esp political) discussion off the triathlon forum. we're going to make a semi-exception. i knew when i interviewed saqer al khalifa that i would get serious flack from those whose concern or burden is simply and only the abuses attributed to members of the bahrain royal family. i take those allegations very seriously. i think if we're going to patronize this race, give it coverage, talk to the principals, we ought to provide a place to hash out our decision to give this race oxygen. my calculation was as follows, all of which came before my decision to interview saqer al khalifa.

first, there was a prior article i wrote about the bahrainis, discussing and linking to these allegations. it's here, and there is a link to this article immediately appending to the interview on the front page now. you might find fault with the dialogue i had with myself prior to this interview, and i'm happy to hear whatever it is you want to say. it's below. my one caveat, if you want to engage, is this: we're not the economist. we're slowtwitch.com. geopolitics is not the reason people come to us. triathlon is. therefore, any discussion we're going to have here should be in the context of triathlon. i don't mind discussing anything you want, just, as long as the backdrop of triathlon is acknowledged. we wouldn't be discussing bahrain unless: 1) there's a very significant race going to occur there; and 2) a large slice of this country's political leaders and elite are hard core triathlon enthusiasts, and that's unprecedented in the history of our sport.

the quashing of a popular uprising among the majority shia, who want more democracy and self-determination, weighed heavily on me. on a visceral level i side with the shia. but on a practical level i see what happens when the obvious successor to the khalifa family - al wefaq - fills the power void. this group seems to me progressive as religious parties go, but still holds that Islam has primacy on family matters. it doesn't seem to me even a close call as to where bahrain sits over the past 15 years, among islamic countries, when it comes to expanding rights and access. it's near the top, to the point where the royal family is getting heat from the conservative members of its own side for expanding rights too quickly.

i therefore see this as a binary choice and that choice is not a monarchy or a democracy. rather, the choice might be more closely scribed, as in, the self-determination of the majority, versus the rights of women. some will criticize this as a false choice, as al wefaq is probably more pro-women than most other religious-based political parties. but it is not a full-throated women's rights party. al wefaq is also shy of distancing itself from iran, and iran's strident anti-western stand.

i was a fool to simply cheer the arab spring as if when the shackles come off alexander hamilton shows up and starts quoting locke and voltaire. it's clear that in almost every place we (the U.S.) have stepped in to tip the scales in the middle east chaos has been the result. i therefore don't have any wisdom, any answers, further i don't know that any pundit, politician, or seasoned state department veteran does. i think this should cause me (at least) to pause before i overlay my naive and imperfect view of middle eastern politics on my decision to self-censor coverage of this event.

on the one hand, then, you have the bird's eye view that i lay out above, according to my reading and my thinking. what you have on the ground, in particular, in detail, is the list of specific allegations against certain members of the royal family. these can't be just tossed aside. indeed, some of these acts are attributed to one of those who has fallen inside our circle of triathletes. as tevya said in fiddler, "there is no other hand." this isn't anything that can be tossed off, explained away, discounted, dismissed, diminished.

so, ought we to give oxygen to this race? does it deserve it? if i say "no", on what basis? because of a substantiated allegation of torture against a shia demonstrator by a member of the government? okay. but then should i also not give coverage to any triathlon in the united states either? should i not cover this race because the bahraini government chooses what it considers expediency and realism over a sped-up recognition and granting of full rights to all bahrainis? okay. but then should i not cover any races in the U.S. either, since we house our 5th fleet in bahrain?

this was my thought process, and, it has led to the "slowtwitch doctrine": we will either not cover, or actively campaign against, athletic events that seem to us to be specific attempts to propagandize and hide and put a false face on otherwise onerous regimes and practices. the 1936 olympics comes to mind.

i don't think this is one of those races. if you look at this particular man i interviewed, in his "former" life, before triathlon, one of his initiatives was pushing for free health care for all bahrainis on the condition that they spent a requisite amount of time engaged in improving their physical fitness and health. this guy is just a convert to what we believe in, at slowtwitch, at the core: that health and fitness saves and adds value to lives. this race is not a screen behind which is hidden tyranny. tyranny may exist in bahrain, but hiding it is not the purpose of this race. accordingly, i can see no reason why we should not embrace the possibility that a race likes this throws a lot of disparate people together in the cauldron of competition, where they come out the other side a little bit closer than before.

okay. sorry for the dissertation. i will discuss this with any person of goodwill for as long as that person wants.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
go ahead Dan and discuss it with people here and not offline
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
that's my intent. i got a couple of drive-by facebook comments immediately upon the publication of that interview. which is fine. i've invited them both to engage here, on this thread, mostly because reader forums are just much easier places - better architecture - for having a discussion. they either will or won't post here based on whether they are truly serious about their message.

the one issue that, to me, was much much tougher than the response to the arab spring uprising was the kafala system that abuses and functionally enslaves foreign workers. this has been a persistent criticism of abu dhabi. this isn't anything that, to me, is defensible. bahrain's handling of the arab spring revolts is troubling, but there are offsetting realities that at least bear discussing. there is no offset to kafala.

it seems to me that the government in bahrain has been more out front on excising kafala from its country than other arab states, and i did look into this before i made my decision as to my posture on this race and our coverage of it.

i have always believed in sunlight. article XXIII, the newest and last of USAT's bylaws, is called the "sunshine policy" and lew kidder and i wrote it. it's been a topic of hot contention at USAT ever since. to me, our coverage of this race ought to bring sunshine to bahrain, everything in bahrain. i think bahrain is ready for it. we'll see.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 30, 14 19:21
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, I am sorry but you lost me after the first paragraph and you obviously are obviously used to way outsmarting people on a forum. I have no problem with any party in this but 'am excited to see your responses to previously targeted criticism that has been portrayed and somewhat supported here.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, thanks for posting this, and I'm more uninformed on all of this, but I know this seems to catch a lot of flack.

So I'm currently going through graduate school and one of the things I've been pounded into the ground about is "supporting" your stance with facts/figures/research and never saying "I think". So, going back to a few of your comments, how much of this were you able to research? Is all of this pretty common knowledge about the issues, and who's been attached to the issues and who hasn't. Your probaly one of the most knowledgeable person in this industry, and when you put your weight behind something, that obviously means something. I also know/feel you aren't afraid to "step on toes", or maybe it's more accurate to say, you don't seem like a "yes man". So you going out on a limb so to speak with this race and the issues attached to that region, to me has a lot of merit.

So is the abuse overblown, or is it more a case of, yes they have some pretty bad issues, but so does the U.S., and by our reporting, it's only fair to give them a fair shake as well?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Aug 30, 14 20:01
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Aug 30, 14 20:18
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan

Many triathlon seasons I had the pleasure to compete at the World Military Games. This was a venue for servicemen from all countries to square off against each other on the field of play rather than the battlefield. We stood, on parade at the Olympic Stadium in Rome at the opening ceremony, each one of us in our respective country's military uniform. Then the next day, we took those off and put on our sporting uniform. Amazingly those who we viewed as foes, became our brothers. This was the Olympic games for servicemen, and the motto was and continues to be "friendship through sport". While we went through our military training, the target at the shooting range was called, "Ivan" (I was a serviceman when the cold was was full blown). Turns out the Ivans were really just like us. A bunch of geeks obsessed with swim splits, bike gear, and what Spencer Smith or Simon Lessing did at last weekend's race. In that 10 days or so, I learned that how "the same" we all are, even though our countries cultures, our military training, or daily environment drive into our brains that the other guy is the hated enemy who will rip the eyeballs out of my skull if given a chance. I found that sport really ripped down the barriers between us. The Infanteer from Mozambique running on the track, the midshipman from the Naval Academy in the swim competition, the pilot from the Royal Air Force at the shooting range (funny that one...) or the tank commander from Israel on the wrestling mat. Or myself a triathlete whose parents came to Canada for a better life, with a Maple Leaf sharing the same start line with Stadler and Hellriegel and realizing that the weapons we use in sport when we square off are a heck of a lot nicer than what I was programming to put in F-18's.

So that really changed my perspective on how much sport can bring us together, and I think it is more important the good that can be achieved through sport than some of the down side. If you stop covering any sporting event where there is some political strife or human rights violation connection you will not cover a single sporting event anywhere. Why are you covering the ITU World's in Edmonton, because just a few hundred miles away, if you talk to native Canadians, Canada has done more than its share to abuse them, or Chinese Canadians, or Japanese Canadians. We have ZERO leg up on the Bahrainis, because you can look right in our back yard and point to an endless sequence of mess ups over time. Better stop covering all events in Canada if you're gonna boycott Challenge Bahrain. And I picked on my own country, because it is easier to pick on yourself. If I pick on your country, or England or any former European power, I could come up with a list that fills an entire facebook data center in terms of Petabytes of abuse related content, but that just gets a bit too messy.

So I say, keep covering triathlon, whether it is in Edmonton, in Bahrain, in Abu Dhabi, or Beijing or NYC. Remember some of the history of New Amsterdam and what the Wall in Wall street was there for (from wikipedia): One version of the story is worth quoting: "The red people from Manhattan Island crossed to the mainland, where a treaty was made with the Dutch, and the place was therefore called the Pipe of Peace, in their language, Hoboken. But soon after that, the Dutch governor, Kieft, sent his men out there one night and massacred the entire population. Few of them escaped, but they spread the story of what had been done, and this did much to antagonize all the remaining tribes against all the white settlers. Shortly after, Nieuw Amsterdam erected a double palisade for defense against its now enraged red neighbors, and this remained for some time the northern limit of the Dutch city. The space between the former walls is now called Wall Street, and its spirit is still that of a bulwark against the people." [10]


...because you can always go back a bit or a lot in time and find fishy behavior by humans in any location where we have triathlon...either now or back in the day. Where do you cut the line?
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:
After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?

In America, money talks. All that other stuff is irrelevant.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. //

Why do you think it is absurd? And not just here, but just about every other country we go and compete in, you can find some really bad shit, much, much, worse that beating someone. China, Russia, and many other countries that we love to compete against, and on their soil, would fall into the top of your list i would guess. I saw this same shit 35 years ago when Carter wrongly boycotted the Moscow olympics. Then they in turn boycotted ours. What was gained, nothing. You can always find a reason to not go to some other country, but competition is the bridge that will eventually unite us. That and business are the things that bring people of all nations together, and it is a step in the right direction to understanding each other.


I get it, you don't like what some of them do, they don't particularly like what we do. We don't like what the Chinese and Russians do, they don't like what we stand for. But thus far we have gotten along pretty well all things considered, and sport is a big reason for that. I say give these guys a chance, I made my opinion perfectly clear a few days ago in the lavender room on what i though of the arab spring and its outcomes. These guys are boy scouts compared to many of their Arab brethren. Lets find some things in common and pursue them, rather than building a wall and hunkering down with guns loaded and ready..We don't need one more unstable government over there, think we have enough on our plate already.


And this is not a defense of anything anyone has done in any of the countries i mentioned(including ours), but a defense of sport for sports sake.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. //

Why do you think it is absurd? And not just here, but just about every other country we go and compete in, you can find some really bad shit, much, much, worse that beating someone. China, Russia, and many other countries that we love to compete against, and on their soil, would fall into the top of your list i would guess. I saw this same shit 35 years ago when Carter wrongly boycotted the Moscow olympics. Then they in turn boycotted ours. What was gained, nothing. You can always find a reason to not go to some other country, but competition is the bridge that will eventually unite us. That and business are the things that bring people of all nations together, and it is a step in the right direction to understanding each other.


I get it, you don't like what some of them do, they don't particularly like what we do. We don't like what the Chinese and Russians do, they don't like what we stand for. But thus far we have gotten along pretty well all things considered, and sport is a big reason for that. I say give these guys a chance, I made my opinion perfectly clear a few days ago in the lavender room on what i though of the arab spring and its outcomes. These guys are boy scouts compared to many of their Arab brethren. Lets find some things in common and pursue them, rather than building a wall and hunkering down with guns loaded and ready..We don't need one more unstable government over there, think we have enough on our plate already.


And this is not a defense of anything anyone has done in any of the countries i mentioned(including ours), but a defense of sport for sports sake.

x2 to the parts in bold.

We and the rest of the world had zero issue around a massive Olympic party in Beijing during the time Bolt and Phelps were covering themselves with Gold medals, and we have no issue turning a blind eye to all the abuses, both industrial and human that result in our cheap goods at Walmart or the LBS. The world ain't perfect. Let's do like they taught me a few decades ago, "Friendship Through Sport".
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The interview seems incomplete. For example when he says this:

"Triathlon is just one little thing we can do to bring to the streets of Bahrain a healthy lifestyle, social development, the unity among the population, the rich and the poor coming together in a triathlon waiting at the finish line."

The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bahrain is one of the most progressive nations in that region. I can support that.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm impressed by the time and thought you've put into this. While people may disagree on how much weight to give various factors, I think we should all appreciate your approach.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here"

i didn't rebuff you. i invited you here. you came. i'm glad you did.

i'm familiar with the allegation. the person i interviewed is not the person who is the subject of the allegation. i chose my interview subject. he didn't approach me, i approached him. and, i have no business relationship with the bahrainis. i don't anticipate any. i'm going to be heading to interbike in a week and a half, and when i do i'll see most of my contemporaries and competitors walking the floor 2 at a time: the editorial guy along with the advertising guy. clear message to the brands who see these pairs coming. the same couples were seen at eurobike last week. we don't do that.

so, i hope we can dispense with the payola allegations. not that you engaged in that. just, for those who did accuse us, and for anybody else...

if it was not for the incident that you bring up, this wouldn't even be a close call. nothing to discuss. bahrain is probably, along with jordan, the most progressive country among islamic monarchies and constitutional monarchies. it's done more since the last change in head-of state (late 90s) to move toward western sensibilities as regards freedom, self-determination, self-expression, freedom of movement, than any other country similarly organized with a similar history. when it comes to taxation and social welfare and benefits what it offers its citizens is remarkable for a non-oil-producer. it's got the fastest growing economy among the GCC countries, and its wealth flows to its unenfranchised citizens to a degree probably in excess of what happens in the U.S.

but, you have the response to the arab uprising and a central figure in triathlon is implicated. i read a number of articles like this one, and i think this pretty well sums up the refusal of this issue to be reduced to easy rights and wrongs. i don't know what happened there. i can't imagine torture as an acceptable let alone honorable remedy.

so what should our posture be on slowtwitch? bahrain, and its rulers, and this ruler in question as part of the ruling family, represent the best of the middle east. you tell me, at least among islamic countries, who is better than bahrain? morocco? maybe. turkey? maybe. where else?

bahrain is running, not walking, in the direction we would like the islamic world to go, compared to other countries in that region. my guess is that our being there and talking to them and riding our bikes with them, and teaching them a better flip turn, triathlon diplomacy, is better than not being there.

i also do not know the other side of the story. i don't know the response to the allegation of torture. i didn't ask. had i asked, i'd have gotten the other side of the story. if i printed that, we'd be into dueling narratives, and i don't feel that i'm a fit arbiter for that, and i think it misses the point and certainly strays from our mission.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical."

i think you might do 2 things:

1. search women's rights in bahrain. see what the current government has done in regard to women's rights since the turn of the century. see what impact what they have done has had on other GCC countries.

2. reflect on the fact that the majority of bahrain's population is shia, and is actually against women's rights reforms that the government wants to make. this is why i wrote earlier that it's not simple. you might argue that self-determination is a bedrock right. majority rule. but what happens when the majority wants to disenfranchise women? you're granting one right to give up another. (egypt.) it looks to me as if the bahraini government is going about as fast as they can on women's rights. it's like a bahraini asking why obama doesn't fix immigration. i'm sure he'd like to.

if you or anyone have evidence that refutes what i'm writing here, i'm eager to learn.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You summed this up perfectly. Dan is always the guy in these discussions wearing his big boy pants. To even engage in conversation with these self-proclaimed open-minded individuals who are in fact close-minded to any beliefs outside of their own is him offering to meet them more than halfway! We'd all be hard pressed to find anyone who considers all of the sides of the issues as much as he does.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As I have aged, my politics and view of the world has changed from being a liberal, idealist college student, to a conservative, right-wing business person, to a politically neutral mind-your-own-business attitude. I remember completely supporting the invasion of Iraq and the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Looking back I realize how many mistakes we made and have since created another power vacuum in the middle east being nicely filled by ISIS. Essentially, by getting rid of an "evil dictator" and disbanding his army we created the next Afghanistan.

What's this go to do with Bahrain? Everything. Western countries need to stop looking at Eastern countries and applying Western mentalities and politics. To us, countries that identify women as second class citizens, keep dictators in power by force, and maintain bloody, violent, tribal boundaries seem barbaric and we want to yank them into 2014 and have them suddenly apply the same human rights we have to all people. Western civilization did not evolve that way and Eastern civilization won't either. Does that mean we will continue to have cruelty in the world? Yep. But we have that in Western civilization too. The US Government wrongly imprisons people, tortures people, kills thousands of innocent people every year by drone and airstrike, and supports cruel governments when it suits our fancy but let someone we don't "like" do it and it suddenly becomes verboten to attend a triathlon there.

Does anyone think Iraq is better off today then when Saddam Hussein was using a heavy hand to control tribal and religious violence? Government members were forced to become a non-religious Bath party member. Was life for all in Iraq unicorns and rainbows? Certainly not. But it was far, far more peaceful and stable than it is now. So let's go in to yet another country and get involved in tipping the political scales and then see what happens. It won't be any different than Egypt, Syria, Iraq or any other place the stable, strong government has been eliminated. Chaos. Civil war. Unrest. In this case as in most others, we should MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS. Terrorists aren't attacking us because they don't like our freedom. (Does anyone still believe that line of BS?) They are attacking us because we can't not get involved where we don't belong and continue to play policeman to the world.

The Bahrain triathlon looks like it should be an extraordinary event. It is the kind of purse pros and pro proponents have been clamoring for for years. Let the Bahrainis figure out their politics and just go race.


Pete Githens
Reading, PA
Last edited by: Mr. October: Aug 31, 14 3:24
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maui_ wrote:
The interview seems incomplete. For example when he says this:

"Triathlon is just one little thing we can do to bring to the streets of Bahrain a healthy lifestyle, social development, the unity among the population, the rich and the poor coming together in a triathlon waiting at the finish line."

The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical.

So you think tomorrow if the Bahraini royal family says "Women can wear whatever they want and compete in triathlon" that Bahrainis will say "Oh. Okay".

It doesn't work like that. This is a deeply ingrained part of culture that isn't going to go away for many, many, many years if ever. We can complain about it all we want but remember even in the US we still have pay inequality, gender bias, and glass ceilings.


Pete Githens
Reading, PA
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In my head the question became: If I support the Bahrain triathlon, am I part of the solution or part of the problem?

But then that seemed insufficient. It not really either/or, it is both and complex.

Perhaps a helpful stance would be:

How can we make the Bahrain triathlon a tool for change?

They want our support/participation/validation, we want ______________ (women's participation and programs?) from them (besides prize purse).

Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
http://www.meaction.net/about/what-is-me/

"Suck it up, Buttercup"
(me, to myself, every day)
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I appreciate the spirit (and, to an extent, content) of the original post and interview, but what I am missing is the critical element. I wasn't expecting a "hard hitting" interview involving in-depth journalism - as you have pointed out, this is not your domain. Having said that, I had hoped for a critical perspective. The sentiment that you and several posters have conveyed is what I would call "hopefully" one-sided. I think that the optimistic perspective is the more or less the productive one, and thus should be encouraged. Would we like to see improvements in Bahrain's human rights record - clearly the answer is "yes". Do such sporting events harbor the potential to bring about a change in perspective in those individuals who participate - I think so. Is the discovery and/or generation of common interests helpful in fostering mutual understanding (especially across cultures) - most certainly. Will sporting events lead to a profound change in a country's human rights record - no, not really. Sport can bring to together, but it is just as capable of dividing and fostering a non-fruitful form of national "one-upmanship" (see Olympic Games during the cold-war).

What is the take away here? I have nothing against this event. If all parties go into the event with open and unbiased eyes, they will probably find the whole experience more enriching. However, "open eyes" also means taking a hard look at the negative aspects (of any group, culture, or nation-state). It is not enough to acknowledge past and current human rights abuses, and then brush them aside because, 'at least they are better than ….', or 'these are unverified allegations'. That is too easy. To simple say that one is 'not dismissing' the human rights abuses is not the same thing as doing justice to them. I admit that it is not easy or comfortable to go down this path because we most likely won't like what we find there. Nonetheless, the critical perspective I referred to above means looking these abuses (or even allegations) in the face, and then drawing consequences. This is what was missing in my opinion.

What consequences do you draw from your research and interview (aside from that we should give this event a chance)? Where do you personally draw the line, i.e. at what point would you change your mind about this event? Does it make a difference that the royal family (i.e. heads of state) is involved in putting on the event? If yes, how might this event by misused? If no, then what convinced you that this joint venture between Challenge and the royal family is not primarily a political tool? These are actual, and not merely rhetorical questions. I have appreciated your even-handed and thoughtful approach to a variety of issues over the years, and look forward to your responses.
Ciao
Quote Reply
Post deleted by SPL Tech [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: SPL Tech: Aug 31, 14 4:15
Re: Bahrain politics [Mr. October] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
As I have aged, my politics and view of the world has changed from being a liberal, idealist college student, to a conservative, right-wing business person, to a politically neutral mind-your-own-business attitude. I remember completely supporting the invasion of Iraq and the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Looking back I realize how many mistakes we made and have since created another power vacuum in the middle east being nicely filled by ISIS. Essentially, by getting rid of an "evil dictator" and disbanding his army we created the next Afghanistan.
What's this go to do with Bahrain? Everything. Western countries need to stop looking at Eastern countries and applying Western mentalities and politics. To us, countries that identify women as second class citizens, keep dictators in power by force, and maintain bloody, violent, tribal boundaries seem barbaric and we want to yank them into 2014 and have them suddenly apply the same human rights we have to all people. Western civilization did not evolve that way and Eastern civilization won't either. Does that mean we will continue to have cruelty in the world? Yep. But we have that in Western civilization too. The US Government wrongly imprisons people, tortures people, kills thousands of innocent people every year by drone and airstrike, and supports cruel governments when it suits our fancy but let someone we don't "like" do it and it suddenly becomes verboten to attend a triathlon there.
X2

Was waiting for this perspective, thank you. Somehow our news cycle and political opportunism creates motion in the wrong direction more often than not. Time for us to start learning that maybe not every country out there is waiting for us to teach them how to do things the "right way."
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan referred to Bahrain as a non-oil producer. That is incorrect. Relative to its Gulf state neighbors, Bahrain is a minor player in the industry. However, hydrocarbons remain a key part in Bahrain's economy and by far its largest export. Bahrain produces almost 50,000 bbls of oil per day and has plans to expand its downstream sector. Revenue from the oil and gas sector provides a major portion of government revenue, perhaps more than 50%. Today's oil price is probably below what the Bahrain government needs to balance its books.

Andrew Inkpen
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thank you for engaging this conversation. These issues - the social side, political side, the personal side, the opinion side are all very complicated. I sure wish I could type better to participate more in this thread.

My views have somewhat swung like a pendulum over the years and I believe that for me age is moderating them. For the 1980 election I was a huge on campus Reagan supporter. How does that square with the thought that Clinton may have been our most effective modern President and that Bush II may have been the worst we have seen for world relations?

It is also apparent views and perspective always vary based on where you are standing. For example, the Arab Spring - I don't know how anyone couldn't see at the time that it was problematic. The interesting part is the politicians that fully supported the Arab Spring and were against some of the protests that were going on back home . . . it is all position and perspective (and political games). Likewise, our invasion of Iraq - what has happened since was totally predictable. If it wasn't what we/they wanted, then the initial decision was not wise and/or was politically motivated. Should their athletes boycott us?

It is hard for us to fully understand the views of others, and them the views of us. What do others think when they see our situation in Ferguson? Can foreigners trust our law enforcement? Can law enforcement trust us? Should athletes avoid the US based on these sort of situations (which happen all the time)?

Athletics and competition have always been a great ambassador, and yet the political folks like to use it as just another pawn in the game. I had several friends that missed the chance of a lifetime for the 1980 Olympics. That was devastating, shameful, and the politicians never understood the damage they did - micro and macro.

I like to think, and believe (idealist jumping out here) that competition is usually good despite politics. Competition with the Iraq soccer team is good for both sides. Competition can be an ambassador. The (fair) pursuit of health and fitness is universally positive.

Non-agendized discussion of these issues is positive. Certainly we better by having understanding and perspective on them. Hopefully we also remember that we are ambassadors here at home too - individually and collectively.

Sorry for the poor typing and abbreviated development of thoughts....

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Last edited by: david: Aug 31, 14 4:59
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply

Prev Next