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As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ?
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The guy is on fire AGAIN.

Dances away from the peloton at Fleche Wallone:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/04/analysis/three-ingredients-valverdes-winning-recipe-mur_435991


Tears things apart at Volta Catalunya, Ruta Del Sol, and Vuelta Pais Vasco.


Liege Bastogne Liege this weekend.


The guy is better than ever after his Puerto ban, or the peloton is lower octane due to blood passport.


With the summers grand tour season coming up, Quintana has some decent firepower on Movistar with Valverde.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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certainly he is on fire, though he normally is in the early season if not quite to the same level. i think this year in particular he is leaving the giro and tour to quintana (perhaps eyeing up vuelta) so more focused on the spring racing than most rivals who are building slower towards GTs. but really, he is quite uniquely suited to these races and in particular fleche as a genuine top level climber who also has genuine speed.

as for his dubious past, if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated". i find it funny the way different riders are viewed in light of their pasts... some cast out completely, some considered completely fine, valverde seems to be an odd mix. worth noting that his 2 years away from the stress of racing might be just the reason why he is able to perform at such a high level despite his age

personally, i like him as a rider and see no reason to view him in any different light to anyone else wrt drugs

hoping quintana can come out of the giro well and movistar can be part of making a real race out of the tour this year
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated

He was full-on caught. His DNA was matched to the DNA in a bag of plasma seized in Operation Puerto. He got a full two-year suspension.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
certainly he is on fire, though he normally is in the early season if not quite to the same level. i think this year in particular he is leaving the giro and tour to quintana (perhaps eyeing up vuelta) so more focused on the spring racing than most rivals who are building slower towards GTs. but really, he is quite uniquely suited to these races and in particular fleche as a genuine top level climber who also has genuine speed.

as for his dubious past, if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated". i find it funny the way different riders are viewed in light of their pasts... some cast out completely, some considered completely fine, valverde seems to be an odd mix. worth noting that his 2 years away from the stress of racing might be just the reason why he is able to perform at such a high level despite his age

personally, i like him as a rider and see no reason to view him in any different light to anyone else wrt drugs

hoping quintana can come out of the giro well and movistar can be part of making a real race out of the tour this year

I kind of view him in the same way that I view most pro cyclists and how I view all of the NFL. These pro sports are not normal, the competition is intense, the money is pretty big and the show is awesome. When you combine all of those, you're viewing maybe a toned down version of WWE. It is money and business first, entertainment as a means to that and fair competition after that. The players in the arena will do whatever they will do to self level the perceived playing field to keep their paycheques and not get cut from the team and go back to bricklaying or selling cars or tractors or trucks or whatever that is less glamorous than doing pro sport. Given all of the above, he's on a tear. I trust that his path to winning is similar to a lot of his peers. He still has to execute on the field of play on race day, and you have to give that guy credit for being able to pull things off year in and year out.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
pk1 wrote:
if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated


He was full-on caught. His DNA was matched to the DNA in a bag of plasma seized in Operation Puerto. He got a full two-year suspension.

ah right, not caught doping as such, just donating blood ;)
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
pk1 wrote:
certainly he is on fire, though he normally is in the early season if not quite to the same level. i think this year in particular he is leaving the giro and tour to quintana (perhaps eyeing up vuelta) so more focused on the spring racing than most rivals who are building slower towards GTs. but really, he is quite uniquely suited to these races and in particular fleche as a genuine top level climber who also has genuine speed.

as for his dubious past, if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated". i find it funny the way different riders are viewed in light of their pasts... some cast out completely, some considered completely fine, valverde seems to be an odd mix. worth noting that his 2 years away from the stress of racing might be just the reason why he is able to perform at such a high level despite his age

personally, i like him as a rider and see no reason to view him in any different light to anyone else wrt drugs

hoping quintana can come out of the giro well and movistar can be part of making a real race out of the tour this year


I kind of view him in the same way that I view most pro cyclists and how I view all of the NFL. These pro sports are not normal, the competition is intense, the money is pretty big and the show is awesome. When you combine all of those, you're viewing maybe a toned down version of WWE. It is money and business first, entertainment as a means to that and fair competition after that. The players in the arena will do whatever they will do to self level the perceived playing field to keep their paycheques and not get cut from the team and go back to bricklaying or selling cars or tractors or trucks or whatever that is less glamorous than doing pro sport. Given all of the above, he's on a tear. I trust that his path to winning is similar to a lot of his peers. He still has to execute on the field of play on race day, and you have to give that guy credit for being able to pull things off year in and year out.

i'd say WT cycling < NFL < WWE wrt drugs and commercialisation but yeah, you have to suspend disbelief a bit just like with most movies. its commercial entertainment first and foremost and valverde is a star - he isn't just winning, he's doing it with style
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
pk1 wrote:
certainly he is on fire, though he normally is in the early season if not quite to the same level. i think this year in particular he is leaving the giro and tour to quintana (perhaps eyeing up vuelta) so more focused on the spring racing than most rivals who are building slower towards GTs. but really, he is quite uniquely suited to these races and in particular fleche as a genuine top level climber who also has genuine speed.

as for his dubious past, if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated". i find it funny the way different riders are viewed in light of their pasts... some cast out completely, some considered completely fine, valverde seems to be an odd mix. worth noting that his 2 years away from the stress of racing might be just the reason why he is able to perform at such a high level despite his age

personally, i like him as a rider and see no reason to view him in any different light to anyone else wrt drugs

hoping quintana can come out of the giro well and movistar can be part of making a real race out of the tour this year


I kind of view him in the same way that I view most pro cyclists and how I view all of the NFL. These pro sports are not normal, the competition is intense, the money is pretty big and the show is awesome. When you combine all of those, you're viewing maybe a toned down version of WWE. It is money and business first, entertainment as a means to that and fair competition after that. The players in the arena will do whatever they will do to self level the perceived playing field to keep their paycheques and not get cut from the team and go back to bricklaying or selling cars or tractors or trucks or whatever that is less glamorous than doing pro sport. Given all of the above, he's on a tear. I trust that his path to winning is similar to a lot of his peers. He still has to execute on the field of play on race day, and you have to give that guy credit for being able to pull things off year in and year out.


i'd say WT cycling < NFL < WWE wrt drugs and commercialisation but yeah, you have to suspend disbelief a bit just like with most movies. its commercial entertainment first and foremost and valverde is a star - he isn't just winning, he's doing it with style

What did you guys think about today. 4x @LBL!
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think what this means is that LBL needs take a page from Amstel and kill that final climb to Ans to open it up a bit.

All it tells us about Valverde is that he's really good at an uphill sprint.
Last edited by: timbasile: Apr 23, 17 19:03
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Valverde knows how to prepare himself well.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [spookini] [ In reply to ]
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spookini wrote:
Valverde knows how to prepare himself well.

It's not preparation. These days it is called marginal gains.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [Arch Stanton] [ In reply to ]
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No one cares about Valdipshit. Except his mom, probably.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
pk1 wrote:
if i remember correctly he was never actually caught doping as such, just "implicated


He was full-on caught. His DNA was matched to the DNA in a bag of plasma seized in Operation Puerto. He got a full two-year suspension.

The Spanish judge never authorized conducting any DNA analysis, although there is no doubt of his implication in Operaci├│n Puerto.

Taking into account that "everybody" was on juice, the most adversely affected cyclist in this doping era is the most natural gifted one. In my opinion, Valverde is the best cyclist I have ever seen. He has been able to win in a modern era from sprint finishes in Grand Tours to a mano mano with Lance Amstrong in his prime in the Alps.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He's really ruining Dan Martin's season!
Dan's finished 2nd to him in both Fl├Ęche Wallonne and Li├ęge-Baston-Li├ęge in the last week!
I think he also finsihed second to Valverde in some some stage(s) in Paris Nice or Catalunya.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
The guy is on fire AGAIN.

Dances away from the peloton at Fleche Wallone:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/04/analysis/three-ingredients-valverdes-winning-recipe-mur_435991


Tears things apart at Volta Catalunya, Ruta Del Sol, and Vuelta Pais Vasco.


Liege Bastogne Liege this weekend.


The guy is better than ever after his Puerto ban, or the peloton is lower octane due to blood passport.


With the summers grand tour season coming up, Quintana has some decent firepower on Movistar with Valverde.

Hes' a cunning racer who always brings a strong team and good strategy. He's won another LBL.....but really, I could care less. When he's old and grey and wondering why nobody cares about his palmares, we'll all still call him by his dogs name. Perhaps then he'll show some remorse
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [BarcelonaGuy] [ In reply to ]
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hes no cancellara ;)
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [PT] [ In reply to ]
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PT wrote:
Hes' a cunning racer who always brings a strong team and good strategy. He's won another LBL.....but really, I could care less. When he's old and grey and wondering why nobody cares about his palmares, we'll all still call him by his dogs name. Perhaps then he'll show some remorse

Remorse for what? Doing what everyone else is doing? Get real.

When he is old and gray Valverde will be satisfied that he did not punk out with an excuse that he was not willing to do what was necessary to play the game while people like you will be whinging about how you coulda been a contendah if the world was a snow white fairy tale.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [PT] [ In reply to ]
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Couldn't care less?
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
I think what this means is that LBL needs take a page from Amstel and kill that final climb to Ans to open it up a bit.

All it tells us about Valverde is that he's really good at an uphill sprint.

He's pretty much been the best at this for over a decade now.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I kind of view him in the same way that I view most pro cyclists and how I view all of the NFL

There are at least much better anti-doping controls in cycling than there are in NFL. And I'm still a believer in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" so I still make a distinction between riders who have been caught and those who haven't. Even if at times it's seemed like the peloton is almost entirely made up of those who have been caught and those who just haven't been caught yet! Amongst those who have been caught I also make a distinction between those who 'fess up straight away and those who deny it as long as they possibly can.

In Valverde's case I think suspicion levels are higher because he's still so competitive both after returning from his ban and as he gets older. It's unusual for cyclists to improve into their mid-30s, and also it's unusual for dopers to be as or competitive post-ban than they were before it (e.g. Contador or Millar have both raced at a lower level since coming back).

For all the problems cycling has had and continues to have with doping, I still think the aim of having a clean sport (or at least one clean enough that clean riders can win) is a goal worth pursuing. I'm not ready to just give known dopers a free pass on the basis that they're probably all doing it, and if I ever do reach that stage it'll be the day I lose interest in following pro cycling. I do hope that Valverde's competitiveness is down to him being a super-talented rider racing against a peloton that is cleaner and slower than when he was in his 20s. But that's probably naïve!
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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" ST take on Valverde "

I liked it when I was a kid. Slowcooker with spicy sausage made a decent queso. Now I taste and want to barf.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [spookini] [ In reply to ]
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spookini wrote:
Valverde knows how to prepare himself well.

I see what you did there... ;-))
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
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McNulty wrote:
No one cares about Valdipshit. Except his mom, probably.

I thought donating his LBL winnings to Scarponi's family was an extremely classy thing to do.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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FatandSlow wrote:
McNulty wrote:
No one cares about Valdipshit. Except his mom, probably.

I thought donating his LBL winnings to Scarponi's family was an extremely classy thing to do.

Indeed it was. And he can afford to do so because he's won LOTS of races.
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I kind of view him in the same way that I view most pro cyclists and how I view all of the NFL


There are at least much better anti-doping controls in cycling than there are in NFL. And I'm still a believer in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" so I still make a distinction between riders who have been caught and those who haven't. Even if at times it's seemed like the peloton is almost entirely made up of those who have been caught and those who just haven't been caught yet! Amongst those who have been caught I also make a distinction between those who 'fess up straight away and those who deny it as long as they possibly can.

In Valverde's case I think suspicion levels are higher because he's still so competitive both after returning from his ban and as he gets older. It's unusual for cyclists to improve into their mid-30s, and also it's unusual for dopers to be as or competitive post-ban than they were before it (e.g. Contador or Millar have both raced at a lower level since coming back).

For all the problems cycling has had and continues to have with doping, I still think the aim of having a clean sport (or at least one clean enough that clean riders can win) is a goal worth pursuing. I'm not ready to just give known dopers a free pass on the basis that they're probably all doing it, and if I ever do reach that stage it'll be the day I lose interest in following pro cycling. I do hope that Valverde's competitiveness is down to him being a super-talented rider racing against a peloton that is cleaner and slower than when he was in his 20s. But that's probably naïve!

I guess this comes back to what the barcelona guy said above. Is Valverde a naturally gifted rider for whom topping up on dope before Puerto had less impact than a less naturally gifted rider who when topped up does insanely better. We will never know the answer to that. Millar and Contador dropped in performance post bans but are still able to compete in maybe a less doped peloton that has a blood passport to answer to. Between the less doped peloton answering to the blood passport, perhaps Valverde's natural gifts, his tactical genius (you can't deny that) and maybe being less doped but required to be less doped today to compete than in say 2004 maybe we are getting the entertainment we are signing up for.

I don't think the protour is as doped as NFL. It might be less turbo doped than the NFL, in which case, I'll assume everyone is on some low octane "whatever I can get away with" dosage of whatever is the orange juice of the day. Assuming Sky, Movistar, Astana et al can all get access to the same orange juice, well, I am the idiot coming back to watch the juiced show 33 years after watching a then doped peloton roar into Grenoble during the 1984 TdF. No amount of doping busts keeps me away from watching pro cycling or the NFL. I am just assuming that the flavor of orange juice and the dosage just keeps changing over time but everyone in the competition has access to the same stuff. It still does not change that some body physiologies respond to the juice differently/better, but I can't control what the players are taking....I'm just assuming the authorities try to keep the playing field level enough for the competition to be a competition (I won't say a fair one because of the physiological response thing).
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Re: As we go into Grand Tour Season: ST take on Valverde ? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
He's really ruining Dan Martin's season!
Dan's finished 2nd to him in both Fl├Ęche Wallonne and Li├ęge-Baston-Li├ęge in the last week!
I think he also finsihed second to Valverde in some some stage(s) in Paris Nice or Catalunya.

I agree, but DM blew it tactically in both finishes.

In FW he allowed himself to get totally swamped at the base of the final climb -- so much so that he wasn't even in frame to begin with, with 10+ riders in front of him. Coming back to 2nd from that terrible position suggests he could have beat AV straight up.

In LBL he went early, showing his talent at the hill sprint, but the move really failed to respect the calibre of AV -- who has not shown an ounce of weakness this year. Without DM's team putting him at a distinct advantage for an early sprint (he kinda just went himself), he really should have followed AV's wheel.
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