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Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames
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Hmmmm... interesting comments from Tom Danielson:

One second slower than Bobby was Discovery Channel's George Hincapie, who was most thankful just to be finished with such a violent effort. "I'm glad to have that over with. For three kilometers, an effort like that -- you can't really train for it. It hurts a lot... extremely brutal." Hincapie chose to ride a road bike with aero bars because of the steep climb, as did his teammate Tom Danielson. "I ran a regular road bike -- we did a little wind tunnel testing and both have similar drag coefficients," Danielson explained.


TheBikeRacer.com
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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No.

What many people seem to forget is that the geometry on a Tri bike has allot to do with the muscles that we use on the bike, and try to keep others fresh(er) for the run. Sure, a forward seat post will make you more comfortable on an aerobar - that is not allowed on a "road" bike but for TT events. I doubt a wind tunnel will care if you have a 72 or 78 degree seat tube.

My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3 - but on a long course I will have a faster time on the Cervelo....will never ever win a sprint on it though (mostly due to shifting systems though)...so many parameters that are not equal...tri bikes and road bikes...

I wonder what my Cervelo would ride like with a drop bar...hmmm...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't it a general rule that riders know very little about the equipment they are riding? Now, if Johan said that, well...
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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Remember the application for which they are referring, a short 3K prologue where the last 1/2 involves a steep out of the saddle climb. At that speed the difference will be small and the Discovery riders thought that the ergonomics of the bike for climbing outweighed the small differences in drag at those speeds.

It is not the bike as much as the position that the bike can put you in. I can attest to the difference after this weekend.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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There are a lot of factors that can play a role:

Length of course

Type of course

Bike handling skills

Fit and positioning

However a very general answer to your question is NO Tri frames are not that much faster than road frames for most Age group athletes.A lot of people who are riding Tri frames with steep angles would be faster on a road bike with aerobars on short,hilly and twisty courses.

As for the long flat courses a good rider who can stay on the drops with a flat back will probably be faster than a mediocre rider who can not stay in the aero position on a tri bike without coming out of the position every 10 miles for couple minutes

It is funny to see people on their tri bikes but can not hold a straight line or descent on courses like todays Tour of California.

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I see obsessed people.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [doubleplay] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, dont get me going on the idiots who were all over the Moo course who could not handle a ball point pen, let alone a bike on aerobars in one of the many corners.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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You 'gonna run your ultimate with some shorties on it at Lake Placid or bring the P3? Just kidding, I know you're riding the P3, but I am seriously considering doing Lake Placid on my Vortex with T2+ as I have it DIALED and feel pretty good on it instead of my Guru (a no brainer to use at IM FL).

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen many people at IMLP on road bikes...tons...let see, my Ultimate now weighs under 15lbs, with Record, my P3 weighs in at just over 21lbs with Record...hmmmmm. I am seriously considering brining the Ultimate - then again, I may just get a new custom Blade.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Isn't it a general rule that riders know very little about the equipment they are riding? Now, if Johan said that, well...


yep, I think you are right. a pro rider with, what shall we say, about 20-30,000 km per year for x years will know little about their equipment... me thinks not. don't forget that Johan was a pro rider too, so where did he or Bjarne or Sainz learn so much? probably by being pro riders...
Last edited by: Avago: Feb 19, 06 20:51
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [doubleplay] [ In reply to ]
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I guess my subject line is being misunderstood. It was meant as a sarcastic statement and not as a question.

So many people are hooked on aerodynamics that it's interesting that a Discovery rider would admit their road frame isn't really that much slower than their TT bikes.

I take it as in a real world application, ie, with wheels, wind, rider, that the difference between the aerodynamics of a Trek Madone (road) frame and TTX (TT) make a marginal if any difference.


TheBikeRacer.com
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Avago] [ In reply to ]
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Dont discount the fact thay Pro's dont sit there and question every gram and every aspect of their rides - they have people to do that for them. While we have the luxury to weigh the benifit of every gram, they ride what they are paid to ride, what a wind tunnel tells someone, and what they are given. Most pro's have no idea what they are on - just cause your hero Lance wants to micro manage the weight of his shift cable housing does not mean that they all have the time, nor desire to do the same (and to that dont forget that Lance wins only the Indy 500 of races, the rest of the Peloton has a season they look at) I never did and never will give Lance as much credit as I do Lemond, Indurain, Merckz (sp) and Hinnault...they entered a race a won - Lance, he only shoots for the big show (that makes him smarter I guess)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dont discount the fact thay Pro's dont sit there and question every gram and every aspect of their rides - they have people to do that for them. While we have the luxury to weigh the benifit of every gram, they ride what they are paid to ride, what a wind tunnel tells someone, Mand what they are given. Most pro's have no idea what they are on - just cause your hero Lance wants to micro manage the weight of his shift cable housing does not mean that they all have the time, nor desire to do the same (and to that dont forget that Lance wins only the Indy 500 of races, the rest of the Peloton has a season they look at) I never did and never will give Lance as much credit as I do Lemond, Indurain, Merckz (sp) and Hinnault...they entered a race a won - Lance, he only shoots for the big show (that makes him smarter I guess)........................................................................................................... R10 some, may have no idea, but most pros would have a pretty good idea of what they're on about. btw, what does Lance have to do with anything
Last edited by: Avago: Feb 19, 06 21:50
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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"Lance, he only shoots for the big show"

I guess you weren't there when he outsprinted the field at the TdG a few years ago...w/Cipo in the field.

And my-oh-my how we forget how he chased an LBL win for many years...
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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"My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3"

I would be very curious how you determined that, Chip. I'm having visions of some swiss cheese logic. I hope you can dispel them.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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"My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3"

I would be very curious how you determined that, Chip. I'm having visions of some swiss cheese logic. I hope you can dispel them.

Not to speak for Chip here, but perhaps he meant "I am much faster on my Ultimate than on my P3"

Personally, I feel more comfortable and faster on my Vortex than on my Saber, but still use the Saber for tris so as to save my legs.[u][/u]
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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....if I were going to do an Ironman I'd do it on my road bike with a pair of clip-on aerobars so I could change positions over the distance....that's what I do when on long training rides as the discomfort starts to come in......I'd go part of the way on the aero bars, part on the hoods, part on the drops....thats what I reaslistically think would be best for ME.

So it does not surprise me so many people use road bikes....actually Ironman Lanzarote was all raod bikes as far as I saw from TV coverage.....but that has real climbs eh?!

So, if there's any sort of hills on the course a road bike is best anyway cos you can change gears easier and the bike weighs less....I can go uphill better on my 7kg road bike than my 9kg TT bike....no question.....

I think TT geometry bikes should be used for TT's (up to 60km or whatever it is) and not for triathlon....just move the saddle forward if you are obsessed with seat angles and how it affects running legs..

So to answer the question, in my view, a road bike could actually be faster for most people cos you will have done most of your training on the road bike and you will thus be more in tune with it and more comfortable on it and thus you will perform better = faster

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
Last edited by: sperera: Feb 20, 06 5:42
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [trifan] [ In reply to ]
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"feel" does not equate to actual speed.

If you are faster on a road bike without aerobars than you are on a TT bike with aerobars...your aero position sucks. It isn't the bike.

Not trying to be a jerk...

I'm just willing to bet that if i have you do a 10 mile TT on each bike, as hard as you can go...that you'll have a faster time on the TT bike, regardless of how you feel on each bike.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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"I think TT geometry bikes should be used for TT's (up to 60km or whatever it is) and not for triathlon....just move the saddle forward if you are obsessed with seat angles and how it affects running legs..."

I guess we're going to dispense with all of the tri/TT bike wins at all distances then. Outside of ITU, Nice, Lanzarote, and like races...I'm willing to bet a paycheck the majority of wins these days are ridden on TT/Tri bikes. Heck...lets check the setups of the top 10, or even 25 finishers at Kona last year...or Fl...or IMNZ...or IM Australia....

Sorry, Stephen...maybe road bikes work better for you where you are...but I would be careful about extrapolating things to a generalization...
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Hey TriBriGuy....hope you're well....

Anyway, I did state...."in my view....and for ME" in this so its just a personal opinion....albeit one that will have a lot of flak directed at me.....

You said: "....the majority of wins these days are ridden on TT/Tri bikes. Heck...lets check the setups of the top 10, or even 25 finishers at Kona last year...or Fl...or IMNZ...or IM Australia...."

I bet these same people would still win on road bikes.....basically they are paid to ride the Tri bikes by sponsors so I dont think we can ever get the real truth of which really is faster.

I bet Lance could kick everyones ass on a road bike if he did Kona.....but he wouldnt cos Trek would give him the latest Tri/TT frame so people like me think....gotta get that one...its a fast bike....rather than the truth....he's a fast cyclist! heh heh heh

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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....and I say this as a typical "gotta buy the latest and best to make me faster" person.....I was in that trap for ages!!!! Now I buy for other reasons....

I have just bought a new frame and forks - Storck CD 1.0 - road bike cos I wanted a change from the Orbea Orca I had for two years. I sold that on and got the Storck....but not cos I thought it would make be faster....it won't.

I have come to realise that I only need better legs and do what Eddy Mercxx said....."don't buy upgrades, ride UP grades" heh heh

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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" bet these same people would still win on road bikes....."

Only if the other people are also on road bikes. Put Sindballe on a road bike, no aerobars...no way he sets the Kona course record last year...and Faris rides away with the bike split...

I think the truth is fairly definitive...but some can't see the forest for all the trees out there...
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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i meant road bike with aerobars though...

.....the original question was about frames rather than the unquestionable value of aerobars.....road bike with aerobars vs TT/Tri bike and aerobars.....and about normal people rather than pro's....seeing as the question came from a forum user...

I think Sindballe on a road bike with aerobars would have set the course record cos he was on his game.....but then this is something we shall never know.....

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
Last edited by: sperera: Feb 20, 06 6:42
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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Danielson's comment certainly surprises me as I've certainly thought that aero tubing should make a difference, which is much more of a consideration than the seat tube angle. According to the wind tunnel tests from Martin and on Cervelo's website an aero tubed frame is about a minute faster over 40 kms. There aren't many road bikes other than the Cervelo Soloist that have genuine aero tubing so on this point alone most tri bikes should be a bit faster in theory assuming they have aero tubing. Then there is the issue of rider position, would would be more aero on a tri bike.

My take is that the advantages of a tri bike are on flat couses where you can hold the aero position for extended times. Were there are hills and technical courses leave the tri bike home.

Personally, my road bike with clip-ons and my tri bike have always had similiar times at local area sprint tris, but my hamstrings are less fried heading into the run off the tri bike.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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Do the top pro's ride the bike the sponoor paid them to ride? How much choice do the pros have within their sponor's lineup? Same question about wheels? If Zipp (just an IE) wants to promote their new disc and the rider what 808s who wins? I would think golden rule would determine the outcome.
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Re: Are Tri Frames really that much faster than Road Frames [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just willing to bet that if i have you do a 10 mile TT on each bike, as hard as you can go...that you'll have a faster time on the TT bike, regardless of how you feel on each bike.
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TriBriGuy,

You are absolutely right about the 10 mile TT on a reasonably flat course but there are not that many tri bike courses like that.

As for the pros riding TT frames as I said before it all depends what type of race they are in and how much they are being paid to ride that equipment!!!

2005 Phuket Triathlon top three guys were riding road geometry bikes with short aerobars like George and Tom yesterday.

On most of the courses AG competitors would be much faster on a road bike geometry with aerobars and little steeper seat angle but than who is going to buy all those expensive bikes and wheelsets.

I think everybody wants to look fast even if they are not.

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I see obsessed people.
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