Chris,

In my experience one minute isn't enough time for my HR to really getup there. Perhaps theories have changed but one of the classic bread and butter VO2 max workouts for biking or running was 4 or more X 4 minutes with equal recovery between the "on" sections. It takes a couple of minutes for HR to get ramped up each time but you'll spend a good deal more time with your ticker really hammering.

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Pretty much what I thought, hopefully I got some benefit from it!

I think I will have to work up to 4 min at that kind of level as well, will see if there is something to bridge the gap and work towards.

Thanks

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

Chris,

All you need to do to be immediately successful at the 4 minute intervals in adjust the intensity. Try out 110% of FTP for the first couple and see how they go. If it's a bit tough completing the 2nd one then grind out 2 more. If the second one isn't too hard at its end crank the third on up a bit. They is absolutely no reason to slowly build up to 4 minutes. Start there and build the intensity week to week. Don't sweat it if 120% of FTP is too hard to begin with.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Same experience as sciguy...1 minute Vo2Max efforts rarely get my HR near Vo2Max. However, when I do 3 minute efforts I typically reach Vo2Max HR for the last minute or so and more as the intervals add up.

With that being said, you're REALLY far off Vo2Max HR levels, at least according to your zones (Vo2Max for you is 178), I don't think 3 or 4 minute intervals is going to get you there...are you sure your LTHR is accurate?

I use 170 as my threshold HR, which is pretty close to what I can hold and about 5bpm from where it gets really uncomfortable. I had it set at 165 before, at Training Peaks has periodically told me to put it @ 170, which I did. Recent sweetspot sessions also appear to be pretty much on the money.

Good point however, I will keep an eye on it.

Thanks

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

will you benefit from riding hard: yes

is it the best thing to do: who knows, you can maybe find out after a few years of experiment if you have a good power meter and use it properly.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Hmm, sorry for stalking but I looked at some of your old 8 minute FTP tests and my guess is the TrainerRoad LTHR recommendation would be far lower than 170. For comparison, my most recent 8 minute test I had average heart rates of 173 and 176 for the two intervals...TR recommended a LTHR of 161. Your most recent 8 minute test you had averages of 159 and 166...

Just some food for thought?

I actually feel that you can't do these 1-minute Trainerroad intervals at the full target intensity on a Kickr. The rampup is simply too slow for a 1 minute interval.

With 1 minute intervals at 120% FTP, every second at FTP+ counts. I have a Kickr, and I don't feel it's the same intensity at all compared to doing it on a Fluid2 trainer, which is significantly harder.In fact, on the fluid2, I'll often go OVER 120% FTP to get that average interval power up to 120%. With the Kickr, that's impossible, as you ramp up only to 120%, and not over it.

Not saying it's still not a tough workout, but honestly, a bone-crushingly hard workout like Sufferfest Revolver for me done on a Fluid trainer is a much harder workout than Revolver on the Kickr. On the Kickr, it's like "ok, I'm sweating, but no problem." And the avg inteval power is always lower than 120%. Whereas on the Fluid trainer, after about 8 of them, it literally feels like a near-death experience, and I have no idea how I'm going to survive to the finish.

I prefer doing 1 minute intervals on the Kickr in slope mode now, where it simulates a climb, and you can push the power as high as you want. If I did Revolver at what I feel is the coach author's target power, I'd have to increase the workout intensity to 105% or so to make sure the slow rampup is compensated for with a higher peak power.

It starts to get interesting at 4min. Try a 3-4x4min with 4 min easy recovery spins in between.

Not a problem.

I used to have my LTHR set as per trainerroad, but workouts at that level always seemed to excessive. The results from TR put me in tempo/sweetspot for efforts that I could hold pretty much for a lot longer and therefore use what TrainingPeaks tells me, which is close to what I 'think' it should be. A recent event also had my avg HR at 162 and max of 177 and that was for 4 hours, so I am not sure my LTHR could be less than that, but I do see your point.

Thanks

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

gets pretty confusing when you look at heart rate a lot, doesn't it?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

So if I sprint at 200% for 15s but my HR never exceeds 150BPM... I never went aerorobic?

Is there potentially more benefit from longer efforts at VO2 intensities? Yes, but the intensity and duration of rest have to be considered.

HR is a lagging indicator, and an input value. You train primarily energy systems... then muscle fatigue resistance and recruitment. You don't have large reserves of ATP to fuel muscle movement. When you exceed a threshold, you exceed a threshold. That's why VI is so important. Otherwise 30s average power would be all that mattered.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

If I do a completely balls to wall sprint for 1 minute I can get there but generally speaking 1 minute is too short. My standard go to session is 5 minutes hard as I can go with 1 minute EASY spin. Off season 4x building to 8x at peak fitness.

Might I suggest Trainerroad "Morgan" then.

8 x 3 min at 120% with just 3 mins rest (26 min total with warm up spins).

SOLID 1 hour - just did this on Tues this week. Ouch.

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/1814-Morgan

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

great point sir. Even though I'm big on HR. An interval of 1 min might be fine and dandy. But, HR isn't going to be a useful metric. Power would be.

as a rough example HR might be meaningful as a metric after the 2nd (or more likely the 3rd or 4th) minute into an interval.

On a side note. I find it useful to plan a workout for...
a) development of muscular strength, endurance, etc.

b) cardio/pulmonary development, or

c) both a and b above.

I point this out because an "effort" of VO2 that is only 1 or 2 minutes long might be working "a" (above) but won't work b or c (in all likelihood).

To make you feel better... So many people "over" worry about the absolute perfect workouts. It's good to do your best, but, your body only knows that you've put in the "work" or, not.

Be consistent, recover when needed, and have confidence in yourself. Most important...

Enjoy the journey.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

As a triathlete, you will have plenty of heart beats left at any race pace. The reason you are not going faster has little to do with training your heart. It is due to metabolic fitness in the muscles. However, if you want to increase your VO2 max (which is different than going faster on the bike during a TT), I think the 1 minute intervals are not optimal. What rroof recommends is pretty good. This is the bike equivalent of 1/2 mile track repeats with a 1:1 work to rest ratio. It just plain works.

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Simplify, Train, Live

what about just doing 15 sets of 1:00/1:00 without the 8 minute break, seems like the 8 minute break would make you "start over" again so that it would not be possible to get to vo2 max as you have found

Lets clarify something. You don't train your heart directly, and don't need to train your heart directly. It operate passively/automatically. It fitness increase proportional to you metabolic systems. Your heart will ALWAYS be more fit than your metabolic systems unless it's diseased or damaged. HR is one, slightly indirect, measure of training stress on your body. More direct measures are oxygen consumption and power output. Power output is usually best because once you reach VO2max, you power output continues to increase without an increase in oxygen use. Plus oxygen intake is "muddied" by "overhead" of other physiological systems that are keeping you alive. At an electric power plant they call it "house load" so to say. All the energy required to generate the power.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

reading between the lines, are you saying not to do vo2 sessions?

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

+1

I could do 1/1 all day at 120%. Kick it up to 130% of FTP, and cut out the extra rest. Build to 25-30 straight.

I do vo2 max at end of an hour ish of lt and my heart rate is really high gets to 190 ish during the vo2 max that way. Like sweet sweet spaghetti monster I have never been so dizzy in my life lmao

Well.....no. Not saying that at all. What I am saying is that the thing to be concerned about is metabolic fitness of the muscles if your goal is to race faster in a triathlon. Chasing a max heart rate is just fun and games. Improving the VO2 max is a bit different, especially in a run mode, where cardiac output can be a limiter. In that case, VO2 max intervals that are long enough to get close to the max HR is a good idea. What has been suggested by some is 1/2 Tlim VO2 max, which is 1/2 of the time you can hold VO2 max pace. This is going to be 2-4 minutes for most.

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Simplify, Train, Live