http://www.aeroweenie.com/...elt/2014-Felt-AR.pdf

SuperDave and Felt did a WT test with all the top aero bikes of the day. I always considered this test to be the gold standard of manufacturer tests. The builds were super clean and the component selection was about exactly what a typical high-end build would be. It actually favored a number of the competitors that have poor cable routing (Venge).

Another thing to remember is the first iteration of the S5 was very different from the current vintage. One thing to consider is the head tube height on the S5. The original S5 had a super tall headtube so fit can be an issue. The first generation was heavier and some people didn't care for the ride quality.

So long story short, the AR can be a very attractive choice. Put some TriRig brakes on it and be happy.

To add to what Mike mentions above about the S5, also keep in mind that rear tire clearance is very limited. This is especially true for the first gen S5 where a 23c tire is the max you can run on rear and taller tires like the Conti GP4000sII in 23c will rub the frame:(

It's honestly a borderline deal breaker for the AR. I have thought hard about selling mine for that reason alone. It's really tough to make it not rub. Felt denies this is an issue. In my opinion it's the result of a) an overly stiff frame that doesn't flex at all in the stays b) poor brake placement.

Nevermind that it's a nightmare to access and work on. Go with the S5 -- no nonsense, brake on the seat stays, etc. -- and I say this as a Felt diehard.

That said, the better idea is to just wait for whatever Premier Bike comes out with

As much as I love my AR, I agree. I run my rear brake super wide open (to the point of my lever almost hitting my bar when squeezed) and have to deal with some maintenance 2-3x a year on it that I don't on traditionally placed rear brakes.

Any interest in a Giant Propel or an Orbea Aero?

Thank you all for the feedback.

- I hadn't considered or realized the issue with the S5 tire clearance. It is a first generation S5, so that could certainly be an issue. I usually run 23's exclusively, but could probably end up with 25's at some point.

- I was afraid of the rear brake issue carrying over from the DA to the AR...argh

So, back to the drawing board a bit.

I'm open to hearing about the Propel or Orbea. My LBS carries the Propel and it's always been an eye-catcher.

Well, to be fair to Felt, it's partially "b.)", but is really a function of rear wheel lateral stiffness. Look at this plot from Damon Rinard's wheel stiffness data hosted on Sheldon Brown's website:


What you're looking at is lateral displacement measurements of a rim for a given lateral load. Zero degrees is the location of the load application, and look at what happens with the very flexible wheels at 90 degrees from the loading (this would represent the ~location of a chainstay mounted brake with the lateral load applied at the contact patch). Aside from the deflection at the contact patch, the greatest lateral displacement occurs at the 90 degree point, in a direction opposit the load direction. The rim is taking the classic "taco" shape in response to the load, and it is significantly greater on the more flexible wheels. You can also see that at the location where a brake is typically mounted on the seat stays (~120-150 deg) that deflection has reduced on the more flexible wheels, and is basically "flat" (i.e. ~same as 90 deg point) on the more laterally stiff wheels. Interestingly, on some of the stiffest wheels, the lateral deflection is actually slightly GREATER at the seat stay mounted brake location than at the chainstay mounted location.

So, in the end, it really is a wheel stiffness, or wheel selection issue. I was aware of this when designing/spec'ing my Stinner, but I chose the chainstay location anyway for other reasons (cable routing, aerodynamics, and aesthetics...in that order). The only rear wheel I can get to rub on there is my Hed Jet+ 6, which has a mere 24 spokes, and a relatively low-profile aluminum rim under the cap. I sometimes wish I'd gotten the "stallion build" version that has 28 spokes. All other wheels I've ridden in there have been at least 28 spokes, and there hasn't been rubbing on any of them.

So yes, the issue can be exacerbated by the brake placement, but it's really a wheel lateral stiffness problem.

That said, if I didn't build my own "Aero Camino", I most likely would've seriously considered the Trek Madone as a replacement for my stolen S5...and this is coming from a guy who has ridden Cervelo aero road bikes since 2004. Just another option for the OP

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That may be, and that's what Felt says. But I have tried new or like new sets of 202s, 404s, and 808s, all of them tensioned to the breaking point, and if the rear brake on my AR is basically anything but totally open, then I'm getting rub every time I make watts with high torque. It's maddening. Just put the damn brake on the seat stays.

If the Strada were 2x compatible I'd be in line

These bikes are not in the same league as the others we are discussing. Have you seen the front brake on the Propel?!? And besides that, it's slow. Don't even get me started on the Orbea.

I love my AR. The reversible seat post is awesome and even with my P3 I still use my AR for certain triathlon. I run 25 Conti's on mine with no issue.

As I explained in another thread earlier (using the same Rinard data set), short of spoke tension being so loose that they can go slack, the amount of spoke tension does NOT affect lateral stiffness http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6386748#p6386748

All of those rear wheels are 24 spokes, right? I'm not surprised they rub. The things that affect lateral stiffness the most are the number and size of the spokes.

One other disadvantage to too few spokes, especially in a rear wheel, is eventual problems with flanges cracking...which is something Zipp hasn't been unfamiliar with recently, no? I'm pretty sure this Hed Jet+ rear wheel I own is most likely the last I'll have with only 24 spokes.

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Another vote for the Transonic. Great bang for the buck. I'd buy a 105 bike, get EE direct mount brakes, a fast cockpit, and some HED Jet Black wheels.

This. I have the new-model S5, and I can't fit a Schwalbe One 25mm on the rear. That's a big "25mm" but still a bit disappointing.

I've ridden both. They're both faster than what I own, but I don't own an aero bike and I'm not a sprinter. I certainly agree about the front brake cable being out in the wind. Would you kindly point to some data bout these 2?

Also, a little more pricey, but I like the Venge as well.

I can't find it at the moment but there was recently a Velodrome test of Propel, Madone, Venge Vias, S5, and a few others and the Propel was an absolute dog. Also, the brakes on the Propel flat out suck. I test rode one two years ago and just slowing down from ~25mph on a flat road took an alarmingly long time. If I were in the market for an aero road bike, my pecking order would be:

1. Trek Madone (cost no option all-out aero)
2. Cervelo S5 (cost no option with conventional brakes)
3. Fuji Transonic (budget conscious)
4. Scott Foil

As a note, the Madone's brakes are quite good.

Thank you. I wonder how much of the S5's performance can be credited its bar? Even though Cervelo advertises it at 4.4 watts, they'll tell you in person it's closer to 7 - which is what I think I remember Damon saying when the bar was coming out. I liked the bar enough to put it on my crit bike.

Do you remember who did the test?

The new 3T Strada is kind of intriguing. (though not yet available, and you need all-new wheels apparently)

I have seen the BMC TimeMachine Road at great prices, they rated very high against the best and they will fit a 28 tubular tire, its also nice having a bike you dont see on every block.

Please - get you started. You dont like Orca Aero?
Love to hear your thoughts - you manage to be insightful and enraged at the same time - its a fantastic skillset !

I have the Canyon Aeroad and have to say it's a lovely bike to own as well as ride. Very comfortable and handles well. And also easy to work on, with all pretty standard components and no fancy hidden brakes or anything. Highly recommended if the OP is prepared to wait until they're available in the US.

Thank you ALL for the wonderful insight and opinions.

One thought that has crept into my head is whether an aero road bike will be too much overlap with my current road bike? It's not the greatest bike in the world (2011 Focus Culebro - full Ultegra 6700), but it's a solid bike that I have no issues with. I don't think I'll get much out of selling it, so it's probably more valuable to keep around than whatever I could sell it for.

Now I'm wondering if I set myself up for finding another TT bike...

Actually that wasn't a fair comment. The new Orbea models look great, it's just...it's an Orbea. My perception, maybe unfounded, is that Orbea just is not in the same league as the others we are talking about in terms of aero bikes

Why an aero road bike?

Do you have a specific need for an aero road bike?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Need? That's a tricky word. :-)

My thought is that I want to keep participating in tri's but at the same time don't want have to store and maintain 2 bikes. And, yes I know that's totally against the "n+1" thinking. I thought an aero road bike would be a good compromise and maybe end up converting my current road bike into something more family friendly...flat bar "greenway bike" or maybe single speed?