Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP

Aug 25, 14 7:53

Post #1 of 25 (5648 views)

Ok, I have a question for you guys who know way more about training science than I do. I need some advice:
So my season is mostly over cycling-wise. I've got a Tri next weekend and that's it. I'm racing the Air Force 10k in September. But... it's a running. Anyways. So I thought today a good day to do a FTP/LHRT test, because I'll be easing into base-building in September.

I used Trainerroad, which I've been training on for a year and a half now. I used their 20 minute FTP test, which does the calculation automatically for you at the end.

The results
FTP: 291
LHRT: 136

I'm sure most of you just made a funny face at those numbers and - frankly - so did I. The power seems oddly high for a heart-rate that's so low. But I've been watching my heart rate numbers while I've been cycling lately, and I've been noticing that they seem pretty low. I'm pretty syre it's not a HRM problem, because I can get my HR up in the 170's when running hard, and HRM correctly reflects those numbers. During the test, I also felt like my legs were getting very fatigued, but I could feel that my heart and lungs were not at their respective maximums.

I've done a little poking around now, and those who have had similar problems concluded that they didn't have the leg strength to match the fitness of their heart. The most commonly prescribed solution is weight lifting. That's fine with me. I don't mind hitting the gym - esspecially in the Fall/Winter. But I want to make sure I'm not missing something else... Should I be doing something else to increase leg strength to match my heart strength?

Any advice would be most appreciated!

Last edited by: gantaliano: Aug 25, 14 8:07

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 7:56

Post #2 of 25 (5640 views)

That may very well be your lthr..how high have you seen it on the bike? I wouldn't put a whole lot thought heart rate though if you are using power. It is so variable from person to person.

Last edited by: Wylde06: Aug 25, 14 7:57

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:00

Post #3 of 25 (5632 views)

gantaliano wrote:

I've done a little poking around now, and those who have had similar problems concluded that they didn't have the leg strength to match the fitness of their heart. The most commonly prescribed solution is weight lifting.

Complete nonsense.

It is pretty normal for heart rate to be lower when cycling than running, the gap can narrow if you start cycling a LOT and get really good at it.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
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Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:02

Post #4 of 25 (5626 views)

are you using a power meter or virtual power?

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:05

Post #5 of 25 (5619 views)

Vitual power.

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [Wylde06] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:06

Post #6 of 25 (5615 views)

I've seen it get up into the 150's during all out efforts. I did a TT a couple weeks ago, and it got up around 155ish.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:14

Post #7 of 25 (5599 views)

gantaliano wrote:

Ok, I have a question for you guys who know way more about training science than I do. I need some advice:
So my season is mostly over cycling-wise. I've got a Tri next weekend and that's it. I'm racing the Air Force 10k in September. But... it's a running. Anyways. So I thought today a good day to do a FTP/LHRT test, because I'll be easing into base-building in September.

I used Trainerroad, which I've been training on for a year and a half now. I used their 20 minute FTP test, which does the calculation automatically for you at the end.

The results
FTP: 291
LHRT: 136

I'm sure most of you just made a funny face at those numbers and - frankly - so did I. The power seems oddly high for a heart-rate that's so low. But I've been watching my heart rate numbers while I've been cycling lately, and I've been noticing that they seem pretty low. I'm pretty syre it's not a HRM problem, because I can get my HR up in the 170's when running hard, and HRM correctly reflects those numbers. During the test, I also felt like my legs were getting very fatigued, but I could feel that my heart and lungs were not at their respective maximums.

I've done a little poking around now, and those who have had similar problems concluded that they didn't have the leg strength to match the fitness of their heart. The most commonly prescribed solution is weight lifting. That's fine with me. I don't mind hitting the gym - esspecially in the Fall/Winter. But I want to make sure I'm not missing something else... Should I be doing something else to increase leg strength to match my heart strength?

Any advice would be most appreciated!

As jackmoot said, this is wrong and make no sence. Strenght isnt the limiter in this kind of effort, it s simply your aerobic system. There is a lot of factor that can influence and supress your hr. it s not a great metric to us but if you absolutly want to, make sure you are a little more rested next time you do a test. You could also do a shorter hill climb time trial and see what kind of max hr you will produce, that should help you confirm if your hr is valide or not.

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Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 8:48

Post #8 of 25 (5564 views)

Like most have already explained, heart rate is extremely variable and differs quite a bit from rider to rider. There are also a ton of factors that can alter heart rate from day to day. These include your prior training for the week, diet, stress, sleep, etc. With that being said, this value still seems strangely low to me and I think I can explain why.

We've noticed some inaccuracies showing up with the LTHR calculation after the test. The reason being is that each rider takes a different amount of time for their HR to pick up once they begin the test. While we account for this in our calculation for your LTHR, we're realizing many riders take longer than what our formula was designed for, thus providing a value that is lower than it should be.

Fortunately, we don't have this problem with power. So I would recommend taking this LTHR value lightly, and doing all of your workouts based on FTP. If your LTHR is incorrect, you will quickly realize it when you do a higher-intensity workout with your power set to 291, as I would almost guarantee your HR will quickly exceed 136.

-Trevor from TrainerRoad

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [TrevorD] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 9:00

Post #9 of 25 (5546 views)

TrevorD wrote:

While we account for this in our calculation for your LTHR, we're realizing many riders take longer than what our formula was designed for, thus providing a value that is lower than it should be.

I reckon that's why the triathlete's training bible test has you do a 30 minute time trial but pull the hr from the last ten minutes of that 30 minutes all out.

In practice, it's usually grabbing the hr after it has levelled out, not necessarily the last 20 minutes.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 9:34

Post #10 of 25 (5516 views)

Before you rush to judgement on having this huge difference between run and bike heart rates might want to test your lthr for the run.

But it doesn't really matter if you do. The differences will come down with training, but even if they don't it doesn't matter. You still do what you have to do.

And the others are right, it isn't necessarily that strength training is what you need. A standard training program incorporating some intervals, some long and easy stuff will get you where you need to go just fine.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:01

Post #11 of 25 (5497 views)

How old are you? What is resting hr? Any idea on max hr (running or cycling) aside from "170's"?

Dtyrrell

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [Dtyrrell] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:04

Post #12 of 25 (5493 views)

I'm 27.

Resting HR - last I checked - is in the low 40's. I even clocked it at 39 a few weeks ago before I got out of bed.

Don't know max heart rate though.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:19

Post #13 of 25 (5478 views)

could be peripheral fatigue. You are towards the end of your cycling season so perhaps you're having difficulty stimulating your cardiovascular system due to fatigue in your lower extremities. It happens to me as I build towards my peak, before an A race. Have to work so hard to get the heart rate up into its proper zone.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:32

Post #14 of 25 (5461 views)

gantaliano wrote:

I'm 27.

Resting HR - last I checked - is in the low 40's. I even clocked it at 39 a few weeks ago before I got out of bed.

Don't know max heart rate though.

General rule of thumb is 220-27=193 for hrmax, but this can be wildly inaccurate especially for athletes. As Trevor said, I would keep using virtual power, just make sure your trainer is set up the same way (and same gearing ideally) for all of your tests. That lthr might be good, but there looks like a little uncertainty, and rightfully so. Keep collecting data though. Data is your friend.

The hard part is that you don't have power for your race, but since this is the end of your season, you should know how hard to go out and not be cooked by the run.

Dtyrrell

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [Dtyrrell] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:47

Post #15 of 25 (5442 views)

Dtyrrell

You are correct. I won't have have power for the race, but I've never had power for races. Trainerroad has been a tool to help me build my fitness - which it has been quite successful so far.

The main thing for me is to use the virtual power to give me consistent feedback in the colder months of training. I learned after a year of "just spinning" during the winter that I can waste a lot of time on the trainer in the winter, only to find that I really wasn't gaining any ground for 5-6 that months.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 10:55

Post #16 of 25 (5438 views)

gantaliano wrote:

Ok, I have a question for you guys who know way more about training science than I do. I need some advice:
So my season is mostly over cycling-wise. I've got a Tri next weekend and that's it. I'm racing the Air Force 10k in September. But... it's a running. Anyways. So I thought today a good day to do a FTP/LHRT test, because I'll be easing into base-building in September.

I used Trainerroad, which I've been training on for a year and a half now. I used their 20 minute FTP test, which does the calculation automatically for you at the end.

The results
FTP: 291
LHRT: 136

I'm sure most of you just made a funny face at those numbers and - frankly - so did I. The power seems oddly high for a heart-rate that's so low. But I've been watching my heart rate numbers while I've been cycling lately, and I've been noticing that they seem pretty low. I'm pretty syre it's not a HRM problem, because I can get my HR up in the 170's when running hard, and HRM correctly reflects those numbers. During the test, I also felt like my legs were getting very fatigued, but I could feel that my heart and lungs were not at their respective maximums.

I've done a little poking around now, and those who have had similar problems concluded that they didn't have the leg strength to match the fitness of their heart. The most commonly prescribed solution is weight lifting. That's fine with me. I don't mind hitting the gym - esspecially in the Fall/Winter. But I want to make sure I'm not missing something else... Should I be doing something else to increase leg strength to match my heart strength?

Any advice would be most appreciated!

Brilliant wind up.

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 15:03

Post #17 of 25 (5367 views)

So what was your FTP before this test? I'm just saying that with virtual power you can see these types of wild fluctuations because of different tire pressure and knob turns on the resistance unit etc... The first time I tested my FTP with a real PM I was shocked when it came out to be 30W lower than my previous test with "virtual power" ;)

gantaliano wrote:

Vitual power.

Re: Adivce please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 25, 14 18:41

Post #18 of 25 (5319 views)

It was actually lower before this test. But what you said was true of my last test compared to this one. The tire pressure had been a bit too low last time (in my opinion). So after making some new adjustments to make it "harder" this time, even thought I was more fit this time, the numbers were lower. Which is fine. I just need a baseline. The main thing that was perplexing was the disparity between the FTP and the HR.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [gantaliano] [ In reply to ]

Aug 26, 14 9:46

Post #19 of 25 (5249 views)

I have a similar situation. My LTHR for running is 187, and my LTHR for cycling is 138 with an FTP of 166.

This is my first full year at triathlon. No sporting background. 29 years old, 6'2", 175lbs. So far have completed 4 sprints, 3 oly's, and will finish the season with my first HIM next month.

My running threshold is based on the LTHR test from Joe Friel, and has been validated in several races and during training. I've performed the test about 3 times this year and have had the same number essentially (just much faster pace).

My cycling threshold is based on Trainerroad 20 and 8 minute FTP test using virtual power with my KK road machine. Based on perceived exertion, I would say that my heart rate corresponds with my training (i.e. during a "sweet spot" power interval my HR reaches high zone 2 or just into zone 3).

I have no explanation for the 49 point difference in LTHR between the two sports. It just "is" and I don't worry about it. It doesn't alter my training at all.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [pashellabarger] [ In reply to ]

Aug 26, 14 10:31

Post #20 of 25 (5217 views)

pashellabarger wrote:

I have a similar situation. My LTHR for running is 187, and my LTHR for cycling is 138 with an FTP of 166.

This is my first full year at triathlon. No sporting background. 29 years old, 6'2", 175lbs. So far have completed 4 sprints, 3 oly's, and will finish the season with my first HIM next month.

My running threshold is based on the LTHR test from Joe Friel, and has been validated in several races and during training. I've performed the test about 3 times this year and have had the same number essentially (just much faster pace).

My cycling threshold is based on Trainerroad 20 and 8 minute FTP test using virtual power with my KK road machine. Based on perceived exertion, I would say that my heart rate corresponds with my training (i.e. during a "sweet spot" power interval my HR reaches high zone 2 or just into zone 3).

I have no explanation for the 49 point difference in LTHR between the two sports. It just "is" and I don't worry about it. It doesn't alter my training at all.

I can easily explain the difference. Your cycling LTHR is artifically low because you are 'muscle endurance' limited in the bike-specific muscles, specifically the glutes, which in your case likely can't crank enough power to reach your true aerobic threshold.

This is very common for runners going to triathlon in the swim portion during their early years. They typically just don't have enough muscular endurance to really crank their HR on distance swims compared to running because their arms/back will fatigue so fast. I fell into this category - for my first two years of triathlon, despite putting some decent pool training time and effort in, for anything over 1000yds in the pool, my HR was nowhere close to my run LTHR even at all-out, since my arms were too wimpy.

Now that I've done a lot more swim-specific muscular endurance work (specifically, 7-8 hrs per week on a Vasa trainer), I can crank my pool swims nearly the same HR intensity as my bike/run without letting up for distance.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Aug 29, 14 7:05

Post #21 of 25 (5139 views)

Your reply seems to fly in the face of Jack's and Jonny's, are you basing this off of your own experience only or others as well?

"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [thirstygreek] [ In reply to ]

Aug 29, 14 7:59

Post #22 of 25 (5128 views)

thirstygreek wrote:

Your reply seems to fly in the face of Jack's and Jonny's, are you basing this off of your own experience only or others as well?

Not sure what you're getting at - what do you think the reality of x-over effects from training are and the impact on LTHR?

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Aug 29, 14 8:05

Post #23 of 25 (5121 views)

I am ignorant to the whole subject; considering your reply supports decreased muscle strength as the reason and two posters who called that BS I am looking for reasoning and/or is that an n=1

"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [thirstygreek] [ In reply to ]

Aug 29, 14 8:27

Post #24 of 25 (5101 views)

thirstygreek wrote:

I am ignorant to the whole subject; considering your reply supports decreased muscle strength as the reason and two posters who called that BS I am looking for reasoning and/or is that an n=1

Clarification - when I say "strength", I do not mean maxpower like a weightlifter would indicate. I'm using more as an endurance athlete's definition of "strength" which is more muscular endurance than strength. Meaning that even if Alberto Contador can't squat 1000lbs, he would be considered 'strong muscular endurance' for cycling legs because he can put up high power for LONG periods of time.

I agree with them though in that doing traditional weightroom methods of low-rep musclebuilding efforts don't help endurance cycling/running at all.

Muscular endurance, though is a totally different thing, trained as endurance athletes would.

Re: Advice please - LHRT pretty low for FTP [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 14 6:53

Post #25 of 25 (4678 views)

Your gonna need HRmax to even make the question relevant.

So what you have to do:

Step one: Get rested, perform a HRmax test. Many options, here is an example:

http://www.cycling-inform.com/...cling-max-heart-rate

If your LThr falls within 20-30 beats of your max, than it could very well be in line. If your HRmax is 200, than you have a lot of aerobic training to build up the power cells and capillary density (among many other adaptations) which will effectively raise your lactate threshold (your% HRmax). All of these are individual to you. Sorry if it was all said I only skimmed the longer posts.

Step two, if you like: "aerobic profiling". Yeah, you could perform races from 10 seconds up to 4 hours and chart them on a Coggan table, or you could estimate your efficiency at each intensity sub maximally and decide from there if your training needs a focus on high end work, LT work, low intensity work, etc. I would suggest: 4-5 x 8 (or 10, or 15, keep it consistent) minute intervals, on the trainer. Take 90-120 sec rest after each. Basically perform a lactate test (with or without lactate). Measure AVR HR, watts RPE (borg scale), keeping Cadence/position the same. Start with HR max - 50 to 60 beats and work your way up by 10 beats in each successive increment, until you are certainly above threshold. Last set should be within 15-20 or so beats of max. Be sure to repeat on a 6-8 week interval to make sure the selected training works the way intended.

It has limitations but beats the 1 month it might take to race, and rest from, every distance needed to power profile. Chao.

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