Have you tried fins? It will give you propulsion while you focus/explore your stroke mechanics.

I'm no expert but...

You don't want to stress that shoulder so be careful.

Be sure you are swimming with fluid power and form. In other words, be sure you are swimming such that the arms are not being over taxed, likewise your legs should not be overtaxed, nor the body core. Then, start rolling your hand "over the barrel" as you extend it forward. You won't get the elbow height of a 20 year old elite level swimmer, but you are never going to get this anyway so trying and stressing your joints will all end in vain. An elbow can still be high even if it's not as high and perfect as Sun Yang's (or whatever his name is). Your shoulder needs to feel comfortable. A little more body roll can produce a higher elbow too.

I really like Jonnyo's video http://jonnyoworld.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-catch.html. As to rotator cuff, I am not an expert (other than wrt my own shoulders that I have battled over the years), but my experience is that the main culprit for rotator cuff problems is a cross-over stroke. For me I had to visualize what felt like bringing my stroke way outside my shoulders just to get it line with my shoulders. Have someone watch from on deck to give you feedback.

Good luck

VASA or Stretch Cordz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBHhQn3j7i0&list=PLndFq9-c_rxD_obLvtKa70K71S0SCGCyh

This for sure. My shoulders act up big time when I cross over. In the meantime, I suggest the OP work on shoulder flexibility.

I've improved my catch a lot from my early AOS-suckdom days.

Honestly, for me, swim-fitness related gains were by farrrrr the biggest contributor to a better, faster catch. Like 90%+ of the gains.

But if we want to talk technique, a few pointers that may help you ,that I learned the hard way through video and having to fix the errors myself:

- Be sure you can first swim with ankles banded + pull buoy at a minimum. This means you have a balanced pull that doesn't throw your body out of whack. You should be able to swim pretty hard with this setup - if you can't, you should practice it until you can. By banding your ankles, you remove the kick compensation for any pull errors so you basically 'expose' your stroke imbalances.

- A key move for AOS swimmers with less shoulder flexibility is to widen the entry and catch. I'd recommend at a minimum, pulling with the hand at shoulder-width and possibly even wider than shoulder width. Until you get this down, don't enter narrower than shoulder width, as you'll likely contribute to a cross-over or weaker pull. I'd recommend practicing a bunch of wide-pulls, including extremely (like crazy) wide just to get a feel for it. The wider your pull, the easier it is to achieve EVF. (Just try to do an EVF with your arm straight ahead in the midline - your elbow won't even bend that way., whereas it does it naturally if you are far laterally on the pull.) MOST AOS-swimmers pull too close to midline and end up with x-overs. I

- Have a good regimen of FAST intervals with ample rest mixed into your weekly workouts. Like 25s, 50s and even 100s with lots of rest. The point here isn't to beat your arms into oblivion, but to train the neuromuscular fast-firing you will need for fast arm turnover. You won't get this if all you do are 10 x 100s with 5sec rest, which is more of a sustained tempo pace. It'll only be a minority of workout volume this way, but it helps with the slow turnover and slow catch.

Oh yeah, I can totally help you here. You should really look into getting a Vasa SwimErg. It's changed my stroke completely. I was able to lock in the muscle memory for an early vertical forearm catch by practicing on the SwimErg in front of a mirror, making sure I was keeping a high elbow catch and I practiced it over and over again until I locked it in. Once I got back in the water, my muscles just knew what to do. Pretty incredible! There is a whole freestyle technique video series that helps teach this. Check it out: https://vasatrainer.com/...yle-swimming-part-1/

" For me I had to visualize what felt like bringing my stroke way outside my shoulders just to get it line with my shoulders. Have someone watch from on deck to give you feedback."

An argument for getting filmed underwater, also? It "feels" like I am crossing over/way outside my shoulder/etc. is a hard feeling to shake. I myself cannot do stroke corrections on my own without 3rd party proof. I envy hugoagogo's trust in coaches. :-)

Trust but verify, for a stubborn guy like me. All kidding aside, underwater video was crucial for me as a swimmer (in the 80's).

All best,
Andrew Moss

Learn butterfly.

Thanks for all of the responses everyone. I swim every day and I've been working on some of these things over the last couple weeks. Any particular references that you can recommend for shoulder flexibility? They're definitely getting a little more flexible with the generic stretches I've been doing and with pool time.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

This is exactly the set of videos that got me started on the expedition a few months ago. I think one of my biggest problems is that shoulder width is still just a little too narrow for me to execute a high elbow due to my limited flexibility at the moment. I've actually been doing the exercises she recommends with a theraband, which isn't exactly the same, but about $1,500 cheaper :-/

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Try this exercice (Grab Paddle) I have found after many years this one been the best for really have a sense of properly feeling the pressure on the forearm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz5SZdclNAo


Good Luck

That's a good video, thanks for the link. But I can't quite parse part of it (in my head, the video is fine). I get the part about how over extending drops your elbow, that's a good visual. But is he saying that throughout the pull, rather than having a neutral shoulder, you should have your shoulder 'flexed' or 'tensed' up toward your ear? Just trying it here at my desk (yes my coworkers are looking at me, and no I don't care, they all already think I'm crazy for running at lunch and skipping happy hour in favor of playing with my kid) definitely feels weird (which Jonnyo said would happen). Just seems kind of odd. I can definitely 'point my shoulder at my ear' and I can see how it will keep your elbow high.

I guess I've always been conditioned to immediately stop anything that makes your shoulder feel funny. Very happy to be corrected on that, however. Jonnyo, Dave Luscan, any other experts want to chime in?

ETA: I've been concentrating on the high elbow/evf for the past year or so now, but I was always thinking it would initiate at the elbow, not the shoulder.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

From USA Swimming -- PDF with videos for shoulder stretching/warm-up:

https://www.usaswimming.org/...-slides.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Several good ideas, scanned them. I would go to good PT or good massage therapist who could work on them and show you your limiters. I use mobilitywod website for flexibility and muscles and motion to give me a picture how things work. I had desk job for years with typical forward shoulder roll. Tight pecs too. YouTube so full of stuff, some good some not, but apply common sense. Chris Johnson in Ny has tons of stuff too as triathlete PT. Chris Johnson physical therapist rotator cuff on you tube may get you going.

Lots of good stuff posted already, only thing I would add is that I've found simply swimming with paddles does wonders for getting your catch down. I swam the 100 back in HS but then swam mostly freestyle for 12 yrs or so while doing tri, and then got back into Masters swimming, wherein I discovered that my backstroke pull was pretty weak. Swimming back with just paddles, i.e. no buoy or band, allowed me to really feel the correct way to pull backstroke efficiently. Not using the buoy allowed my kick to work in its normal rhythm; pulling backstroke feels very weird to me. I can pull freestyle just fine, and using the buoy on breast pull is very useful also, but for back the buoy just not feel right IMO. In sum, i think swimming with paddles is quite useful in developing your pull and catch.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Yeah, I am not going to venture into the territory where I pretend to know what Jonnyo is trying to say -- but for me the video was a "no duh" moment. I've lived with my elbows all my life, but when trying to make them work properly for a high catch I was not thinking of them as being the hinges that they are (unlike the shoulder that can flex in three dimensions AND rotate). I was willing my elbow to bend so I would have that high catch, but I was having no success. When I saw the video it became clear to me. I wasn't getting my forearm to bend in the direction I wanted because I was not pointing my elbow (the hinge point) in the opposite direction. Jonnyo's gimmick of painting the hinge point with a Sharpie just brought it home to me.

As to how long during the stroke the shoulder needs to stay rotated, I can't answer that with specificity. If you put your arm at mid-stroke position, there is absolutely no rotation needed to have your forearm perpendicular to the direction of travel -- so somewhere between the catch and mid-stroke it rotates back. I would guess this is something paddles might be good at giving you feedback. For me, even without paddles when I get a good catch it feels like my arm is like a big parachute or air foil -- I can feel the water I am catching and I just focus on keeping that feel through the first half of the stroke (and don't worry about it after that).

And, as I said earlier, DO NOT CROSS OVER. I do not even want my hands on the mid line -- I want them staying shoulder width. I just do not get that shoulder pain when I do that.

I've been heavily into the "how to not suck at swimming" threads. The advice from this forum and ESPECIALLY the Vasa video on catch really helped me. I've knocked 15s off my 100 time just by changing my stroke. One thing I will say: this uses new muscles that I hadn't used before and I feel it in my shoulders and arms. I find it (as recommended) best to keep my distances short when practicing as I tire quickly and my stroke then goes to shit.

I'm not sure tensed up is the right word? Extend your arm, bend the elbow without internally rotating the shoulder i.e elbow pointing to side rather than up, you should feel discomfort/tightness in the deltoid(?). This is one of the causes of swimmers shoulder. Now do it with rotation as per the video, if you do it right, you shouldn't feel anything in the deltoid and feel different muscles working.

You can try big changes briefly, but lower your goals and expectations and implement them just a little bit at a time. Trying a different stroke for lap after lap can injure you, and you'll also be slower since you'll be weaker at it. Be patient and try somewhat different techniques, and gradually work your way to the one you want.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

No, you're right, tensed isn't the right word. I think I'm seeing the light here. This thread has been very helpful. I can already see how this 'high elbow' should be starting at the shoulder, not the elbow. More power there for sure.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

I think you just need to get use to rotating your shoulder toward your ear. You say it feels weird, which makes sense if you don't have the flexibility to rotate your shoulder that direction easily. I did a big focus on my catch last year, and I definitely felt it in my shoulders starting out. You need to distinguish between pain and soreness. Sore shoulders from swimming are fine, and are expected when starting to swim with an early catch/EVF. Swimming is an overhead sport like throwing a baseball or swinging a tennis racket.

One stretch that helps is just doing a streamline position. Watch any video or picture of an experienced swimmer doing a streamline off the wall. Their shoulders are rotated towards their ears. Watching really good swimmers, it is amazing the amount of flexibility they have. You can practice this position at home and on dry land before swimming. You can also practice this EVERYTIME you push off the wall. Get in the habit of doing it when you push off the wall and it will set your stroke up nicely for the length of swimming that follows. It is not going to feel natural at first because most of us are trying to undue years of sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week doing the exact opposite with our shoulders.

to bring some clarification to this...

the movement feel weird as it s a new meuro muscular patern....a movement you are not use to do and muscle agonist and antagonaist work against each other at the beginning and dont allow you to do the movement clearly or cleanly/effortlessly. It s not a flexibility issue. Mostly everyone as the required flexibility to do the movement properly....but you need to learn to relax to make it happen...and that take time.

so i would say to those trying this...dont be discourage because it dosnt work on the first shot.... it take a little longer than 1 time to become a super swimming...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I want to add one thing to this that really helped me.

My paddles have 3 bands that you hook over your fingers. One each on the far outside fingers and one on your middle finger. i will not hook the the middle finger and it immediately exposes a flaw in the catch for me. If done correctly the paddle will stay pressed against your palm. If done incorrectly, it flaps away from your palm and screws up that stroke. YMMV.