Adjusting to a smart trainer

Jan 1, 17 15:36

Post #1 of 38 (7950 views)

I've trained on Vectors + dumb trainer (Cyclops Magneto) the past few years. I finally upgraded to a Bushido Smart. I can't tell if it's a mental or physical thing but it seems like I really feel the L/R power transfer more than before. I feel like it's much more of a "left, right, left, right" push than just smooth pedaling (more like riding uphill rather than riding flat land). I'm wondering if the brake in the trainer is making tiny adjustments as the power transfers between legs and dips.

Just curious to know if anyone else has experienced anything like this. My Vectors are telling me that my power phase is ~225 degrees so there's definitely a dead spot (~135 degrees) in my stroke. From what I'm seeing that looks to be completely normal. I'm calibrating everything each ride.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 7:40

Post #2 of 38 (7789 views)

I did my first full Erg ride today (Sufferfest Angels). One thing I noticed is that my Garmin speed / cadence sensor says I averaged 9.8 mph with a NP of 204. And that's exactly what it felt like - like I was going uphill the entire time.

Will putting the bike in a different gear make any difference? Right now I'm simply leaving it in the small chain ring / easiest gear.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [wcb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 7:53

Post #3 of 38 (7778 views)

wcb wrote:

Will putting the bike in a different gear make any difference? Right now I'm simply leaving it in the small chain ring / easiest gear.

Not really. Erg mode takes gearing almost completely out of the equation.

I would also not always leave it in the easy gear. 1) because of chainline efficiency, and 2) you don't want to wear down just one cog.

I keep my gearing somewhat in the middle for chainline purposes but change the gear every ride to avoid wear and tear on the same gear.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [wcb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 8:11

Post #4 of 38 (7756 views)

If you are new to smart trainers, the he feeling can be normal. What was the workout that you did on there? If muscle endurance is lacking on the higher wattage, then you start to drop wattage and the trainer adjusts to make it harder to attempt to stay at your target tempo.
I find this more true with wheel on vs direct drive trainers.

My YouTube channel- https://www.youtube.com/ksquaredcycling
Time RXR Super Record | Cipollini Bond Campgnolo EPS | Specialized Shiv TT SWorks Super Record | Colnago C59 SR-EPS | Colnago EPS Super Record | Colnago Prestige Ui2

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [wcb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 8:39

Post #5 of 38 (7732 views)

That's a low speed. Yes, put it in a higher gear and the feel of the trainer will improve. I normally have my tacx around 20-23mph and it feels smooth. I too find it to be a little more jerky at lower speeds.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [beston] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 10:13

Post #6 of 38 (7680 views)

beston wrote:

That's a low speed. Yes, put it in a higher gear and the feel of the trainer will improve. I normally have my tacx around 20-23mph and it feels smooth. I too find it to be a little more jerky at lower speeds.

He's in erg mode. What exactly is changing gears going to do?

He can pedal at a higher cadence and let erg mode adjust to the cadence but changing gears doesn't do or mean anything.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 10:44

Post #7 of 38 (7659 views)

Sounds like you haven't tried it yourself.

Increasing speed (changing to a higher gear) helps inertia and the overall feel of the trainer resistance.

Increasing cadence does not necessarily affect inertia.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [beston] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 10:58

Post #8 of 38 (7645 views)

beston wrote:

Sounds like you haven't tried it yourself.

Increasing speed (changing to a higher gear) helps inertia and the overall feel of the trainer resistance.

Increasing cadence does not necessarily affect inertia.

You're confusing and conflating subjects.

Changing gears in erg mode doesn't do anything. It just doesn't. I'm not sure why you're struggling with this concept.

Changing your cadence does something as the trainer adjusts to the cadence. So if you're riding 80 rpm at 200 watts and change your cadence to 90 rpm, the trainer's resistance will decrease because one of the variables of the mathematical equation changed. If you changed cadence to 70 rpm, the trainer's resistance would increase.

A smart trainer in erg mode doesn't adjust to your gearing, other than the brief change in cadence. So once again, it's a cadence issue and not a gearing issue.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 11:13

Post #9 of 38 (7634 views)

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 11:29

Post #10 of 38 (7612 views)

Gearing does matter. The faster you get the flywheel turning the more inertia you have and the smoother the feel, vs turning it slower and have to accelerate each time. The TrainerRoad guys covered in in episode 30 of the podcast, starting around minute 56. https://soundcloud.com/...-trainerroad-podcast

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 12:02

Post #11 of 38 (7586 views)

The GMAN wrote:

You're confusing and conflating subjects.

Changing gears in erg mode doesn't do anything. It just doesn't. I'm not sure why you're struggling with this concept.

Changing your cadence does something as the trainer adjusts to the cadence. So if you're riding 80 rpm at 200 watts and change your cadence to 90 rpm, the trainer's resistance will decrease because one of the variables of the mathematical equation changed. If you changed cadence to 70 rpm, the trainer's resistance would increase.

A smart trainer in erg mode doesn't adjust to your gearing, other than the brief change in cadence. So once again, it's a cadence issue and not a gearing issue.

Sure it does. Changing gears (same cadence) in erg mode does affect (1) the speed that the wheel spins and (2) the resistance of the trainer adjusts to maintain desired watts.

Changing cadence can also have the same effect.

Either way, the 'feel' of the trainer (and pedal stroke) seems to be worse at low speeds than it is high speeds. I suggest changing gears because increasing speed by 10mph is kind of hard to do without a sizeable (and likely unrealistic) change of cadence.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 12:02

Post #12 of 38 (7586 views)

Gearing does matter for the fact that you state about cadence. If your are having a tough time maintaining a certain wattage, then changing gear will allow for you to push a high cadence to sustain that wattage.

Saying gearing doesn't matter is like saying changing gears up a constant gradient doesn't do anything.

Also muscular endurance at low cadence it typically harder to sustain.

My YouTube channel- https://www.youtube.com/ksquaredcycling
Time RXR Super Record | Cipollini Bond Campgnolo EPS | Specialized Shiv TT SWorks Super Record | Colnago C59 SR-EPS | Colnago EPS Super Record | Colnago Prestige Ui2

Last edited by: EmoryDPTT: Jan 2, 17 12:04

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [EmoryDPTT] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 13:45

Post #13 of 38 (7512 views)

EmoryDPTT wrote:

Gearing does matter for the fact that you state about cadence. If your are having a tough time maintaining a certain wattage, then changing gear will allow for you to push a high cadence to sustain that wattage.

In my experience you will get a brief change in cadence and then the trainer will adjust resistance to match the power again. You don't need to change gears on a smart trainer to increase cadence. You simply push a little harder to increase cadence, and the trainer will relax the resistance a bit to accommodate.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [noofus] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 15:08

Post #14 of 38 (7472 views)

Correct, the gear used is irrelevant, resistance is adjusted to match the cadence used to cause same power output.

If you increase cadence it will be a little more difficult for the few seconds before the erg adjusts the resistance to the new cadence.

noofus wrote:

In my experience you will get a brief change in cadence and then the trainer will adjust resistance to match the power again. You don't need to change gears on a smart trainer to increase cadence. You simply push a little harder to increase cadence, and the trainer will relax the resistance a bit to accommodate.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [lennyk] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 15:38

Post #15 of 38 (7459 views)

lennyk wrote:

Correct, the gear used is irrelevant, resistance is adjusted to match the cadence used to cause same power output.

If you increase cadence it will be a little more difficult for the few seconds before the erg adjusts the resistance to the new cadence.

noofus wrote:

In my experience you will get a brief change in cadence and then the trainer will adjust resistance to match the power again. You don't need to change gears on a smart trainer to increase cadence. You simply push a little harder to increase cadence, and the trainer will relax the resistance a bit to accommodate.

I really don't get why the posters above don't understand this and argue against it. I gave up on the discussion because it was like talking to the wall.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 16:28

Post #16 of 38 (7423 views)

The GMAN wrote:

Changing gears in erg mode doesn't do anything. It just doesn't. I'm not sure why you're struggling with this concept.

Well yes it does. Increasing wheel speed by running a higher gear greatly increases the inertia of the flywheel and rear wheel of the bike. This in turn greatly alters how one might apply force to the pedal. A low system inertia state on a trainer feels like pedaling up a steep incline while a high inertia state feels like pedaling on the flats or down hill. I can watch my heart rate go up at the exact same cadence and power output while riding at 12mph vs 20+mph in erg mode. As one poster above said it sounds like "you've never tried it".

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 17:18

Post #17 of 38 (7394 views)

I've owned a bunch of different trainers, so yeah, I've tried it. For some trainers, yes and maybe. For others, no and maybe.

Direct drive trainers have no rear wheel to move and some trainers do not have a flywheel. So that argument doesn't always hold water.

Maybe we should differentiate one trainer to the next.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 17:29

Post #18 of 38 (7383 views)

The GMAN wrote:

I've owned a bunch of different trainers, so yeah, I've tried it. For some trainers, yes and maybe. For others, no and maybe.

Direct drive trainers have no rear wheel to move and some trainers do not have a flywheel. So that argument doesn't always hold water.

Maybe we should differentiate one trainer to the next.

Great points Gman, Computrainers most certainly are highly affected by wheel speed. My new Tacx not as much but still to a noticeable degree. I guess they programed the virtual flywheel effect to work like the real world.

What units have you used that don't show an inertia effect?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 17 20:46

Post #19 of 38 (7303 views)

I had a wahoo kickr. I could definitely tell the difference in feel of doing 250w in low gearing vs high. When on the big ring going 23-25 mph, it just feels so much easier than being on the small ring going 10-15 mph less. Same power. Same cadence. Using quarq to powermatch.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jan 3, 17 4:55

Post #20 of 38 (7223 views)

sciguy wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

I've owned a bunch of different trainers, so yeah, I've tried it. For some trainers, yes and maybe. For others, no and maybe.

Direct drive trainers have no rear wheel to move and some trainers do not have a flywheel. So that argument doesn't always hold water.

Maybe we should differentiate one trainer to the next.

Great points Gman, Computrainers most certainly are highly affected by wheel speed. My new Tacx not as much but still to a noticeable degree. I guess they programed the virtual flywheel effect to work like the real world.

What units have you used that don't show an inertia effect?

Hugh

I had Kurt Kinetic and Cycleops fluid trainers. Dumb trainers so certainly changing gears, rear wheel, flywheel were in full effect. I also had one of the Cycleops indoor cycles where it was all about the flywheel. So I know what a flywheel feels like.

For smart trainers I had a Wahoo KICKR and currently use a Tacx Neo Smart. The Neo has no flywheel and uses an electronic "brake" for resistance. So there's no inertia effect.

For the KICKR it was noticeable for a few seconds but then the trainer resistance adjust into whatever cadence and, for me, it didn't matter what gear I was in. I see some people say they can feel it and others cannot. Put me in the makes no difference/can't feel it camp.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 3, 17 5:36

Post #21 of 38 (7218 views)

The GMAN wrote:

The Neo has no flywheel and uses an electronic "brake" for resistance. So there's no inertia effect.

I've got more than 50 hours on my Neo but only a few minutes in erg mode just to make certain it functions. You may well be correct in regards to how it reacts in erg mode. In slope mode the Tacx folks programed the electronic brake to act as a virtual flywheel appropriate to the speed one is riding i.e. not much inertial affect at all at low speed and substantial at high speed. The Neo actually powers itself down hill so at least in slope mode there is a big change in how it reacts to the virtual speed.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jan 3, 17 7:24

Post #22 of 38 (7154 views)

The GMAN wrote:

lennyk wrote:

Correct, the gear used is irrelevant, resistance is adjusted to match the cadence used to cause same power output.

If you increase cadence it will be a little more difficult for the few seconds before the erg adjusts the resistance to the new cadence.

noofus wrote:

In my experience you will get a brief change in cadence and then the trainer will adjust resistance to match the power again. You don't need to change gears on a smart trainer to increase cadence. You simply push a little harder to increase cadence, and the trainer will relax the resistance a bit to accommodate.

I really don't get why the posters above don't understand this and argue against it. I gave up on the discussion because it was like talking to the wall.

Sorry but you are being the wall. Gearing does change the feel of an erg trainer for the exact reason that beston and sciguy explained. This is real. Those that EmoryDPTT gave however aren't real. That I believe we agree on.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [astig] [ In reply to ]

Jan 3, 17 7:48

Post #23 of 38 (7134 views)

astig wrote:

I had a wahoo kickr. I could definitely tell the difference in feel of doing 250w in low gearing vs high. When on the big ring going 23-25 mph, it just feels so much easier than being on the small ring going 10-15 mph less. Same power. Same cadence. Using quarq to powermatch.

This is what I was hoping to hear. Similar setup - Bushido with Vector powermatch. I'll report back after another ride in the morning.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [wcb] [ In reply to ]

Jan 3, 17 14:17

Post #24 of 38 (7003 views)

Same thing happens when I'm using my kurt kinetic dumb trainer with vs without the extra 12-lb flywheel. Not all watts are the same.

Re: Adjusting to a smart trainer [ In reply to ]

Jan 4, 17 7:39

Post #25 of 38 (6849 views)

Second ride this morning. I switched gears like I would on a dumb trainer as power went up. Massive difference. Felt much less like I was climbing. Speeds logged by my speed sensor looked normal.

Just my n=1 with a Vector / Bushido powermatch. Sounds like things may be substantially different across various setups.

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.