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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Murray and Blum are monster bikers to have in that chase pack.

Murray is not a monster biker, but I keep seeing on Slowtwitch claims to the contrary. Can you name 3 races where he's demonstrated that? He a pretty decent biker sure, certainly above average, but he's definitely not a 'monster biker'.
Last edited by: messien: Feb 14, 18 10:19
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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Murray rides like Schoeman but with a bigger engine... and can get away with it, because he's in the pack, not the break... Mola is very much the same way, rarely are they the aggressors chasing back on.... The women's races have more monster bikers in the chase pack working hard to bridge (the Jo Browns, Jodie Stimpsons, Nicola Spirigs..), than the men do. The men's races come back together, because the pack tends to swell to the point, where there's just too much power to hold off most of the time.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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the women don't have any monster bikers other than duffy. gentile can bridge up and so can spirig but she races so infrequently.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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Last season, not so much, because Jodie Stimpson was out most of the season... Gentle is not a monster biker to bridge, she needs help to do so, but can run back massive amounts of time, so she only needs to be within 2min or so off the bike for a shot at the podium. Last year, without a Stimpson/vickie holland type to help out, the best they were doing was damage control with 2-3people doing most of the work to keep the gap to 2min, rather than 10....
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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No one can bridge to Duffy, she’s a beast. I think if Gentle could swim front pack she could probably stay with Duffy, but zero chance of bridging 2min.

As for Murray, he wasn’t a bike beast over the 70.3 distance, he got smoked.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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Spirig is every bit as good a biker as Duffy.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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um, no. she gave up 2:17 on the bike to duffy in rotterdam and duffy did a lot more work than she (i get it that spirig had a kid in the spring)

https://wts.triathlon.org/...nal_rotterdam/309472

they had basically the same split in rio:

https://wts.triathlon.org/...olympic_games/305291

when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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mag900 wrote:
when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.

Ever heard of the Spirig train? Very famous among ITU women :-)

Nicola (and Daniela when she still raced ITU) were by far the best bike riders in women's ITU. Bike monsters yes!!! The only reason Spirig never biked off the front (or at least not often) is because she's not as strong a swimmer as Duffy is. Duffy is awesome, that we can agree on.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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mag900 wrote:
um, no. she gave up 2:17 on the bike to duffy in rotterdam and duffy did a lot more work than she (i get it that spirig had a kid in the spring)

https://wts.triathlon.org/...nal_rotterdam/309472

they had basically the same split in rio:

https://wts.triathlon.org/...olympic_games/305291

when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.

Spirig was no where near fit last year, Spirig was the only one forcing the pace in Rio on the bike trying to break, Duffy was struggling to keep up like the rest from what I remember.

If Spirig was as good a swimmer as Duffy and starting as many races, Spirig would probably have two ITU world.titles to go with her Oly gold.

If she's fit next year and competes I don't think Duffy has the same year as she did last year especialy with Holand, Stanford and Stimpson back.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Diabolo wrote:
mag900 wrote:
when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.


Ever heard of the Spirig train? Very famous among ITU women :-)

Nicola (and Daniela when she still raced ITU) were by far the best bike riders in women's ITU. Bike monsters yes!!! The only reason Spirig never biked off the front (or at least not often) is because she's not as strong a swimmer as Duffy is. Duffy is awesome, that we can agree on.

now you are talking nonsense. do spirig didn't bike off the front of races to get a minute lead going into t2 because she had to spend the first 10k of the bike playing catch-up and then forgot she could drop the rest of the field during the rest of the bike? that's a good one. there were plenty of races over the past 2 years where duffy didn't come out of the water in the lead, biked up to the front of the race and then just biked through everyone until she was in the lead that continued to grow. when was spirig doing that on a routine basis?

don't get me wrong, spirig is a great biker, but she's not as strong of a biker as duffy, who probably is the best itu biker ever. she has the record for the largest win ever (larger than any of gwen's) and it was done on the bike!
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
Jackets wrote:
Murray and Blum are monster bikers to have in that chase pack.

Murray is not a monster biker, but I keep seeing on Slowtwitch claims to the contrary. Can you name 3 races where he's demonstrated that? He a pretty decent biker sure, certainly above average, but he's definitely not a 'monster biker'.

He is often leading the pack he's in in attempts to bridge gaps. And quite often it works.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
messien wrote:
Jackets wrote:
Murray and Blum are monster bikers to have in that chase pack.

Murray is not a monster biker, but I keep seeing on Slowtwitch claims to the contrary. Can you name 3 races where he's demonstrated that? He a pretty decent biker sure, certainly above average, but he's definitely not a 'monster biker'.

He is often leading the pack he's in in attempts to bridge gaps. And quite often it works.

I'd 2nd the fact that Murray is a beast on the bike both technically and power wise. He drives the chase pack in most races, especially if he's had an okay swim. London 2012, WTS Yokohama 2014, Chicago 2015.

To see what he would be like in a lead pack, watch Superleague Jersey again.

I don't think Samorin was a true reflection of his abilities on a bike. I also think he's more suited to shorter distance stuff as his training is much more low volume high intensity (under 25 hours p/w).

With regards to Mola, he has tried to drive every chase pack he was part of in 2017. This almost always led to a sub par run, as unfortuntely he is just too light (62kg). The absolute power just isn't there. Even the Brownlees have a good 6-7kg on him. WTS Kitzbuehel 2013 was a 'fairer' race for him with that climb where he showed that in terms of w/kg he's a match for anyone bar AB.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah people forget how well mola did on the kitzbuhl bike when it was all uphill
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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The top three monster bikers in ITU (over ITU distances) that I've seen have been Alistair Brownlee, Phil Graves and Tom Davison. Murray is someone I would put close to Gomez as a cyclist, but still a bit behind. And only on flat courses. Jonathan Brownlee is slightly ahead of Gomez but significantly behind his brother. Then again, is Alistair so much better than the others, or is he just more willing to attack? His 70.3 career suggests actually, yes he is, but his willingness to attack (unlike almost anyone else in the sport) sets him apart irrespective of the power he sustains.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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mag900 wrote:
Diabolo wrote:
mag900 wrote:
when she was on the top of her game (i'd say 2012-15), she always was one of the best bikers but she didn't bike off the front and drop the rest of the field like duffy can and often does now. duffy is in a class of her own right now.


Ever heard of the Spirig train? Very famous among ITU women :-)

Nicola (and Daniela when she still raced ITU) were by far the best bike riders in women's ITU. Bike monsters yes!!! The only reason Spirig never biked off the front (or at least not often) is because she's not as strong a swimmer as Duffy is. Duffy is awesome, that we can agree on.

now you are talking nonsense. do spirig didn't bike off the front of races to get a minute lead going into t2 because she had to spend the first 10k of the bike playing catch-up and then forgot she could drop the rest of the field during the rest of the bike? that's a good one. there were plenty of races over the past 2 years where duffy didn't come out of the water in the lead, biked up to the front of the race and then just biked through everyone until she was in the lead that continued to grow. when was spirig doing that on a routine basis?

don't get me wrong, spirig is a great biker, but she's not as strong of a biker as duffy, who probably is the best itu biker ever. she has the record for the largest win ever (larger than any of gwen's) and it was done on the bike!

Can you give me a race when a fit Spirig and a fit Duffy have came out of the swim simmilar times down when Duffy has biked through everyone and Spirig has not?

What happened to Duffy's superior bike in Rio when Spirig was looking for someone to break with?
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:

He is often leading the pack he's in in attempts to bridge gaps. And quite often it works.

Could you list some of the times Murray has pulled the second pack up to a working Brownlee group in the ITU?
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Adman wrote:


I'd 2nd the fact that Murray is a beast on the bike both technically and power wise. He drives the chase pack in most races, especially if he's had an okay swim. London 2012, WTS Yokohama 2014, Chicago 2015.

To see what he would be like in a lead pack, watch Superleague Jersey again.

I don't think Samorin was a true reflection of his abilities on a bike. I also think he's more suited to shorter distance stuff as his training is much more low volume high intensity (under 25 hours p/w).


Straight of the bat, your first example is wrong. Murray entered T2 in London 2012 close to 2 minutes down of the Brownlee group. He didn't even make up any time on the bike - he lost time in fact!
Last edited by: messien: Feb 15, 18 3:26
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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Who other than Blummenfelt is a better biker in the chase pack than Murray?

When I described Murray as a monster biker I think he is compared to the rest of the ITU field, obviously not Brownlee standard but certainly with in the Top 5.

All this who's a better biker than who is prety hard to prove draft legal racing.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Who other than Blummenfelt is a better biker in the chase pack than Murray?

When I described Murray as a monster biker I think he is compared to the rest of the ITU field, obviously not Brownlee standard but certainly with in the Top 5.

All this who's a better biker than who is prety hard to prove draft legal racing.

I just think it's a bit of a myth to believe Murray pulls the 2nd group up to the 1st with anything close to something remotely resembling regularity (an idea which is often trotted out on here). Sure it's happened a few times but analysis of the data and his results proves otherwise.

I actually forensically broke it down a while back but the search function on here is so terrible that I can't find the post.
Last edited by: messien: Feb 15, 18 3:53
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
Adman wrote:


I'd 2nd the fact that Murray is a beast on the bike both technically and power wise. He drives the chase pack in most races, especially if he's had an okay swim. London 2012, WTS Yokohama 2014, Chicago 2015.

To see what he would be like in a lead pack, watch Superleague Jersey again.

I don't think Samorin was a true reflection of his abilities on a bike. I also think he's more suited to shorter distance stuff as his training is much more low volume high intensity (under 25 hours p/w).


Straight of the bat, your first example is wrong. Murray entered T2 in London 2012 close to 2 minutes down of the Brownlee group. He didn't even make up any time on the bike - he lost time in fact!

Fair enough he was in the 3rd group out of T1 not the 2nd. The other two are valid.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
Jackets wrote:
Who other than Blummenfelt is a better biker in the chase pack than Murray?

When I described Murray as a monster biker I think he is compared to the rest of the ITU field, obviously not Brownlee standard but certainly with in the Top 5.

All this who's a better biker than who is prety hard to prove draft legal racing.

I just think it's a bit of a myth to believe Murray pulls the 2nd group up to the 1st with anything close to something remotely resembling regularity (an idea which is often trotted out on here). Sure it's happened a few times but analysis of the data and his results proves otherwise.

I actually forensically broke it down a while back but the search function on here is so terrible that I can't find the post.

It is interesting though that he has not done it in the last few years. I think that's testemant to how hard the Brownlee driven lead pack has been going since 2014ish. I'd say the most recent Brownlee wins have been essentially sewn up on the bike. There havent been as many Brownlee wins from T2 as there used to be.

AB is even more of a beast on the bike than he was back in 2012ish. I think a lot of that is down to the extra bike work they've been doing through all the recent injuries.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
SkippyKitten wrote:
I found myself working out how to do the transitions... barefoot with rubber platform pedals.

I’m sure someone on here would be fretting about nutrition and hydration... ;)


That's right, NO distance is short enough to do w/o nutrition and hydration. (pink) :)

No kidding! ;) My highlight is still having seen a bike rigged for a spring in the AG-ranks. Regular 20km flat bike. Person in question had 7 or 8 - i kid you not - gels taped to his stem. And 2 full water bottles of course. No pink! :)
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Adman wrote:

It is interesting though that he has not done it in the last few years. I think that's testemant to how hard the Brownlee driven lead pack has been going since 2014ish. I'd say the most recent Brownlee wins have been essentially sewn up on the bike. There havent been as many Brownlee wins from T2 as there used to be.

AB is even more of a beast on the bike than he was back in 2012ish. I think a lot of that is down to the extra bike work they've been doing through all the recent injuries.

Yeah I agree with that. I think knowing they could remove from Mola and Murray from contention in the Olympics also played a significant part in it.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [messien] [ In reply to ]
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messien wrote:
Adman wrote:

It is interesting though that he has not done it in the last few years. I think that's testemant to how hard the Brownlee driven lead pack has been going since 2014ish. I'd say the most recent Brownlee wins have been essentially sewn up on the bike. There havent been as many Brownlee wins from T2 as there used to be.

AB is even more of a beast on the bike than he was back in 2012ish. I think a lot of that is down to the extra bike work they've been doing through all the recent injuries.

Yeah I agree with that. I think knowing they could remove from Mola and Murray from contention in the Olympics also played a significant part in it.

I noticed it at Glasgow 2014 when they'd been outrun a few times leading up to it. Since then they've pretty much made sure Mola or Murray are nowhere to be seen going into T2.

I'd love to know what kinda numbers they're hitting on the bike, particularly AB. He has been training with power recently so would be fascinating to know.

Tokyo will be interesting because I just feel they may pick a course that might not suit a break. I just have a feeling it'll be a runners race.
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Re: Abu Dhabi Start Lists Up [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Adman wrote:

I noticed it at Glasgow 2014 when they'd been outrun a few times leading up to it. Since then they've pretty much made sure Mola or Murray are nowhere to be seen going into T2.

I don't think 2014 was different to any previous year. Thinking of Alistair's races since Beijing 2008, I'm hard pressed to think of more than about five where he either didn't engineer a successful bike breakaway (sometimes breaking away from a breakaway) or at least led an unsuccessful one for several laps. From 36 races that I remember starting in 2009, AB entered T2 at part of some sort of successful breakaway on 25 occasions, i.e 70% of times. I don't think Murray or Mola have yet to even breakaway from the 2nd back, let alone get into a breakaway themselves...
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