Wait, so an adult onset swimmer like me who will lose 1-2 minutes in the water and the lead pack on the bike, but can make of some or most of that time on the bike, gets to drag crappier bikers to the lead pack if possible? So really it's just comes down to "who's the fastest runner" ? Really discounts the bike, just work on swim and run. Not a fan for AG.

Before considering your questions, I have a couple for you?

1. How will the event organizer ensure that an athlete does not draft off of athletes from a different age-group?
2. Are there bike specifications?
3. Will I have to take two bikes to the World Champs if I qualify or want to do both races?

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Sorry to ask more questions, but I'm curious how it works in other countries?

Do they have wave or mass starts? Are total numbers lower?

With the Milwaukee course I don't see much potential for AG mixing, but I see Jommy R's point, especially on multi-lap courses. Maybe those just get mass started?

However it works, I'd love to do one just to try it out.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

You have made some assumption about what the ITU is doing in 2016 worlds for a DL AG sprint race. Everything I have heard says this is far from settled. Until it is, no need to worry about anything else.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

1. Start them in wave 1
2. USAT and ITU Draft legal bike specifications
3. Yes, unless you want to ride a DL bike in the no draft race



1. I agree
2. Need to have a few races so people can practice. Even adding a DL super sprint race would help, there the bike means very little anyway.
3. I don't think that mass start bike racing is necessary. I do feel that someone should have done at least one DL race to qualify for the DL sprint Nationals

I agree there should be practice races available, but all of this has come about too quickly for there to be all that many of them. Given that, I don't think they'll put in any qualifications as it would eliminate too many potential competitors from the field. Last year there were 1735 finishers in the Sprint, bringing in >$147k not even counting the no shows. My completed unfounded wild guess is that registration will drop by 80% if they put in a qualification requirement to have finished a draft legal race. USAT can't walk away from the registration money they give up (and not out of greed--they just have bills to pay).

I do find it a little strange that ITU is very clear that 2016 is DL. But USAT hasn't really commented (as far as I know) on 2015 sprint AG nationals one way or the other. It seems to make sense for DL race, but with people planning their seasons now, it would be good to know for sure.

Practically, I think that if you made a local no drafting rule near the turnaround (after the first time over the bridge) and near the corner going back toward T2 (after coming back over the bridge), you'd eliminate most of the probability of crashes. Those are the only two spots on the sprint course where I could see accidents happening unless someone lost control over one of the expansion joint covers on the bridge.

What I love most about DL racing, is it reduces somewhat, the "Arms race" in bicycle equipment, as there would be marginal gains for a high end bike.

I disagree with another poster. If you are a strong cyclist, sure you might drag some guys with you, but surely, there's other strong cyclists you can recruit to share the work. Yes, some may sit in, but that's when you launch a break with other strong cyclists and drop their asses. That's the challenge of road racing. How to manage your energy reserves.

Ultimately, it rewards the most well rounded triathlete. If you a slower swimmer... guess what, you need to drop your biking to maybe 30-40% of your training in the base periods and swim your ass off to improve. Ramp it up to 30k yards per week. That may likely mean 2 swim a day a few days a week... and a 2-1/2 hour swim til your arms fall off workout instead o a long run on the weekend... and that's still less than a good high school swim program..... and I guarantee you'll see results. You can't piss around at 15k/wk and expect miracles the same way you can't run 20mpw and expect to run anywhere near your potential off the bike.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

No need to get rid of the sprint no draft. Run the DL on Friday, it will be a smaller event anyway.

Then there would be 3 events and "Moe Money" going to USAT

jaretj

This just isn't true. If you miss the lead pack, you're not going to be able to catch them, most likely. Secondly, it's just a different kind of bike race. Instead of straight line speed, you've got to be able to handle a bike in a crowd, close gaps, work together, etc.

Yes, you have to be able to run. That's the case in non-draft, as well. Perhaps not as much as draft legal. Perhaps, the bike is "discounted" as compared to draft legal, but not as much as many make it out to be. Check out this article from Herbert from 2012:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Drafting_2794.html

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-Stephen in Arkansas

Just doing some math:

The good triathletes coming out of the water will probably be riding 29 to 30 minutes for the 20K

If a person comes out of the water a minute down from the leaders, in order to catch them they will have to ride 28 to 29 minutes. That's nearly 27 mph to pull back that minute in any reasonable amount of time before the bike finish.

They're going to have to be an incredible cyclist (on a road bike) to do that. So if someone thinks the only way they can win a race is to drag a bunch of people with them on the bike is kidding themselves.

They will have to work on their swim.

Yup. I would run it separately, too.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

What's the normal limit for field (wave) size in DL tris? The men's 45-49 AG had the largest no. of finishers in Milwaukee last year with 130. If that is too large, USAT will need to do something to limit the wave size.

I raced the sprint last year in the 55-59 AG. I don't think the 75 of us who raced last year would need qualifying DL races before nationals to avoid carnage at DL nationals, assuming that we would have our own wave start.

Since DL races will likely be more tactical, will it be fair to continue to use the age-up rule to select Team USA for Worlds?

You know it would be really fun if Shannon could add a DL to his series races. I'd come down and do them if he offered them.

Or maybe adding a DL two times through-Super Sprint to one or more of his races...Like Maumee Bay.

jaretj

There are no draft marshals at the current events. ;)

I agree with what you are saying but in some races I can drag those fish back to within striking distance on the run, with the lead pack sharing the workload there is no chance of my closing any gap so essentially the race is over after the swim. To the poster who said swim 30K a week, I agree that would probably do it but I'm a business owner and only have so much time to train, spending that much time swimming and ignoring the bike and swim would be a daunting task. Prefer what others have said in that there be 3 races with the traditional non draft and one DL. I don't think any leg of a race should be "discounted".

The point, for me, is that they're different races w/ different strategies, etc. One is not better or worse. One does not prove that you are a better or worse triathlete. Non draft isn't going away. And draft legal is coming. Why can't we just embrace them both? Cycling has multiple disciplines: TT, climbing, crit, sprint, road, track, etc. And different cyclists excel at different aspects of cycling.

It's like comparing different distances to each other. Some people are better built for short course, others long. Or hilly vs flat. Or off-road vs road. Different races require certain skills that another race may not. It doesn't mean they're better or worse.

If triathlon had started as draft legal, the likelihood is that non-drafting would come into play eventually, and we'd be having these same arguments in reverse. I can already hear it.... "The swim is totally discounted in non-draft races. It puts too much emphasis on the bike!"

One might suggest that non-draft races discount the swim. And that by making the races draft legal, it evens out the importance of the disciplines w/in the race.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

That is the big thing I am worried about right now as far as overalls are concerned. Using my wave for example 16-24, if we are launched after two younger male waves there will be masses of people to draft off moving at a solid clip, if we are launched after a couple older male/female waves all of a sudden you are at a major disadvantage in the overalls to the people that did start in a clump of faster age-groups.

Agree bring on the DL as another aspect of racing, I'm all for growth of the sport. Having both formats allows for choice and that serves everyone. I thought I saw a post earlier that stated World's would be only DL but maybe I misread and there will be both DL and non DL. They are two completely different animals in both strategy and training so an adjustment period will be needed.

I think the running abilities for the fastest swimmers is wide enough in a AG race that to say it's over, is a stretch. The best all around triathletes are staying away anyhow on DL and the best AG athletes are all strong cyclists, so the bike is already somewhat neutralized I'd argue and it comes down to either having a balanced swim/bike or being a strong swimmer or strong runner.

I think you can't fairly compared the pro race to the AG race. There will be a wider range of abilities.

But overall, yes, it will force you to be a well rounded triathlete. You can no longer suck at either running or swimming and expect to have a good result.

Here's a scenerio. Lets say I come out at 9:00, 1 minute behind the lead pack. But I come out with a guy that can ride lets say a 29:00 solo and I'm strong enough to stay on his wheel, and even pull 20% of the time and lets say another strong runner comes with me as well. I know he's going to lay down a 15:30 off the bike, so I'm not a threat to him, but together we can bridge most of that gap to the lead group f lets say 2 fish that can't run or bike, 2 fish that are all-arounders. And 1 stud that 's going to win no matter what. 1 fish that a all arounder, then I'll run maybe a 17:30.

So that lead pack drop the 2 weaker cyclists. And the 3 stronger riders work together. Our chase group picks up the weaker cyclists, ow we have a group of 5 chasing the leaders. Those leaders can see us closing and push harder, eventually the strongest rider jumps off the front and builds a 20" lead. We bridge within 20". So now it's a foot race. With all 8 within 1:30 of each others. Guess what, our spread of running abilities is at least 3 minutes, so there will be some big changes in position.

So what's the end result? Closer racing, bike tactics and strategy rather than simply trying to pace evenly.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

"1. Start them in wave 1"

Start all of the draft legal age-groups at once?

Regarding your other answers - my assumptions, too, but I look forward to seeing it all on paper. I was hoping Ian had some inside scoop. Maybe he'll chime in with details ...

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

If you are talking about a local race then yes, I don't think there will be more and 100 people at a local DL race anyway.

If you are talking about Nationals then see my comment about running the DL on Friday, separate from the no draft races. If you put 10 minutes between them on a single loop course I don't think anyone (in contention) will be close enough to draft. If it becomes bigger than ~10 waves or 1000 people then we might have to do something else but still 10 min between waves only adds 45 minutes to the race day over 5 min between waves.

Then again we don't really have to do a DL sprint at all and just use the no draft sprint at Nationals as a qualifier for Worlds.

jaretj

Jimmy, I'm sorry, I have no inside skinny on this. I'm kinda surprised that I haven't heard any discussion of the issue. There's a pickle that's been created here: ITU says 2016 AG Worlds in sprint will be DL and then a decision has to be made. Do we create a DL qualifier at Nationals or not. And if we do create a DL race at Nats then how do we qualify folks for that race.

I'm not worried about ITU's schedule. They made this situation, they can deal with it and it shouldn't be hard - they're already running 6+ DL races at every Worlds event already so they can add this one.

I'm not all that worried about USAT Nationals in DL format - I think that can be scheduled on a different day or after non-draft races and using the same course.

My worry is the creation of local and regional DL races that might qualify athletes for DL Nationals. My immediate thinking might work for the first couple of years: Have the RD run one wave of DL somewhere in their day. Send everyone off at once - all ages for sure, maybe - if numbers permit - separate genders. The problem in the first couple of years won't be over crowding, the problem will be too few athletes. So invite collegiate, U25, U23, Juniors, anyone who wants the DL experience - and it's an AG Nationals DL qualifier (scored separately). We need opportunities for all those folks to race DL now anyway and there are too few events to satisfy.

The Monroe EDR (in the past) and the Detroit EDR (this year, first year) has had ~27 people in the men's race and even less in women's. Some as old as 40 (in Monroe) and some as young at 18.

In Detroit they ran an AG DL even with 8 men and 1 women. That's what we CANNOT have, we cannot have a situation where we ask an RD to put on a DL event and then 1 person shows up. It's too brutal. If we're going to run a qualifying system then pick out one race in each region, give them a small but motivating stipend to subsidize the event in the early years and lump in any and all who want to race draft legal.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

FTR, I like the idea of asking guys to attend a couple mass start cycling races, at least in early years. They could buy a one day license and enter a couple crits. It would give a taste of what a draft legal race is like w/o running into the problems you mention regarding low turnout, etc.

I know lots of local triathletes that regularly podium that would quickly shy away from DL because they're neither comfortable nor competent in race traffic.

My only concern is for safety. I think requiring them to enter the mass start races would weed out a lot of the problems.

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-Stephen in Arkansas