Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree that less top-heavy and deeper prize purses would make sense, but that probably means convincing the people in the top ten that they should take less so that the people in 11th through 20th can have more (or even something). It would also make sense to me that there would be fewer events with pro prize purses, with each event paying more and deeper. It's just not sustainable for a private, for profit company the size of WTC to have 50 races that are all going to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money. So, you wind up with events like IM Lake Placid where the prize purse seems insignificant or even insulting until you consider that WTC is actually paying out $165K in prize money this weekend, divided between three events.

Ultimately, the pros should have some kind of voice in how the $4 million in prize money gets divided up. Is it better, for example, to have ten races that pay $400,000 each or is it better to have fifty races that pay $80K?
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
There's a huge difference between the money pulled in by the "sponsors" for Hawaii and the sponsors (and TV revenue) for the sports people want IM to pay like. //

Many companies are like this, they have a real hard time valuing what employees or celebrities bring to their business, thus ignore it and pretend it is nothing.

If you are able to ignore it, it probably is close to nothing. (meaning if the employee or celebrity left, it would have almost no impact on the business.)

My question is WHY would these companies sponsor an event if they knew it was going straight to the pros? What's the value in that to the business? Do you think there are a lot of companies that just like to support other people's dreams? There has to be something in it for the sponsors, otherwise it is an unsustainable model. They may do it for a couple years because they love the sport but then bail when they see no return.

Companies that want to spend marketing dollars on this kind of stuff really need to be committed to it. Otherwise, it's a waste of resources. Roka is a good example. They are basically buying their way into the market. They have spent a TON of money sponsoring all the top athletes they can get their hands on. As well as events. THAT makes an impact. But it's a HUGE risk and requires a ton of EXTRA capital. Not a lot of businesses have that kind of scratch to basically buy market share. We'll see how it works out for Roka....I still haven't seen that many suits on AG'ers.

I donate a lot of money to pro triathletes. But in the form of supporting their training and livelihood. It has nothing to do with sponsorship because I know I won't see shit out of it....granted, I'm in an unrelated industry.

IMO, I think if the pros want to be paid more, they need to be more valuable. I honestly don't have an answer on how they do that. I don't even know if it's possible. I do know some pros are far more valuable than others and they make far more money outside of prize purses (having nothing to do with results). Which is why I think pros are barking up the wrong tree. If you wanna make more money, don't look towards prize purses....look towards making yourself more valuable to sponsors. That's where the real money is. As a ridiculous example, when Tiger was making $100 million a year, roughly 10% of that was prize money. That should be the goal and the model. Not making a couple grand for 15th place.

I just think the whole approach is flawed. Unless the goal of the "b" pro is to make $60k a year instead of $40k. Which probably could happen with some pressure like this and some collective bargaining.....I just don't think that is real change or the real goal.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
travis_lt wrote:
I'm getting info from someone on twitter that WTC says the race guide payouts was an error and there was no increase. We'll see.

WHAT!?! As soon as I heard the news I went out and qualified for my pro card and purchased a plane ticket to LP, certain I could place 8th. I want a refund. THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If the pro race isn't at Kona the tri media and industry, the people selling expensive shit to age groupers, lose interest and shifts focus to wherever the pro field is. No one cares about an amateur event at Kona and no one in that field would be selling products to gullible consumers. That's value enough to pay every single pro in the field at Kona.

Twitter
Instagram
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My question is WHY would these companies sponsor an event if they knew it was going straight to the pros? ///


Same reason any sponsor gives money to a race, for the exposure. This is how it works, give money, get your name/company associated with that event. I thought everyone knew this, i guess not. Terry Davis used to do this, maybe still does, not sure. But each event has its own sponsor and it is called by that name. Other events do the same thing, piece it out and get more in the long run. Ironman actually does this too, sponsors for each event, but they could further break it down to something like calling it the pro so and so swim. It would be a way to up the purse and not lose the bottom line. Just like they do with their charitable donations. They don't give the money, they get us to do it for them in their name. They look good for 100's of thousands in donations, but it mostly comes from us in ebay slots, charity slots, etc. They know how to defer money to causes that makes them look good without actually putting up that money, i'm just suggesting they could do the same with some pro prize money.


You may not know this history, but the first ever hawaii prize money came from one guy who wished to remain anonymous, and he alone kicked in a $100k+. Our sport is full of those kind of people and companies, but they are not going to be so generous as to just give money to a corporations bottom line..
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
I still don't think the prize purse should come from WTC. It should come from sponsors like every other sport.//

Are you under the assumption that WTC has no sponsors for hawaii? And if not, do you think sponsor money looks different than any other money they pull in?

and it should. However, and I argued this back 5-6 pages ago, the emphasis is on the WTC to decide how to do this and if they want to create the environment to make it possible.

1. They can get their begging bowl out and go cap in hand to bunch of big companies and plead with them to become the lead sponsor and pay the pro purse, in exchange they'll donate slots on the online coverage, have their names on banners etc. This is how they are currently doing it.

2. The alternative is to take a 3-5 view that they'll fund big money prizes, say 5x what they are paying now, make it a real race for the money, make press releases and good will out of the improved payout pot, and for a few years, pay it them dam selves. Then sit back and wait. Eventually Coke, Pepsi et all will notice and release that the families and friends of ironman competitors really don't want to drink perform or powerade and that for a relatively small amount compared to their totally marketing budget, they can be the title sponsor... bingo.

If they stick with what they are doing now, there will minimal growth, they will focus on global event production(homogeneity) and reduce cost and they'll continue to make less the $60m per year. A great deal if you can get it. The alternative is to grow the sport, grow demand, focus on the cult status, the spending power of the competitors, the customer loyalty and create an environment where other companies come to them.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
travis_lt wrote:
If the pro race isn't at Kona the tri media and industry, the people selling expensive shit to age groupers, lose interest and shifts focus to wherever the pro field is. No one cares about an amateur event at Kona and no one in that field would be selling products to gullible consumers. That's value enough to pay every single pro in the field at Kona.

True, with an exception: I would still buy one of everything from Ben Greenfield's booth. Plus a Gluten Tolerant bracelet.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I need to go back and ask, but I'm pretty sure the ITU itself might write some checks, but for the most part, they don't, they require the bidding organizations to write the checks based on the amount the ITU declares the prize money to be.

This is because, Les McDonald, love him or hate him, knew what he want the short course to be and created an environment for it to flourish... (ps. Lets have a "what Les did an didn't do discussion on another thread so I don't feel tempted to join in...)
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The biggest difference between WTC and ITU, for example, is the Olympic movement. Global/National/Governmental federations vs. Private Equity.

TriMark pointed it out earlier in this thread. IM, in the early days, was not an industry. It was an event or a few events. AG and pro raced together. It has changed, now it is an industry. Dan has posted quite a bit about stewards of the sport. USAT love them or hate them is a governing body. They are championed with growing the sport, they are a steward of the sport by their mission statement. You can argue that the bulk of the growth (in the US) has been due to IM events and that would probably be true. Their pro focus in generally on the Olympic movement. So, an event that started out and paralleled other triathlons has turned into an industry within itself. The IM industry as opposed to the triathlon industry. The lines blur between IM and triathlon, though in the US triathlon is almost synonymous with IM. I do think that generally they are a good steward of the sport.

This goes to another post. But as for value. It is a difficult question. Value is a two-way street when you aren't talking about the Olympic movement and NGB or other funding. I like to fish, I haven't fished in forever. But, how are bass fishing pros paid? I don't really see fishing tournaments on mainstream TV. So, everyone says pros need to add value, but it's a tough nut to crack. There are several of us who try, but again...I can't tell you how many Cervelo bikes we've sold, or Smith glasses. Referral codes, etc. work but those are impulse buys generally or on the spot. It's hard for someone to say...Brandon has a Roka 10% off code that I remember reading about 2 months ago when they are ready to purchase. So, we (pros) hear that person.

I don't know the answer as to what is better 10x$400,000 or 50x$80,000. I would look at it as number of athletes who can get paid. As for a voice, even Messick said earlier this year he thinks it would be great if there were a unified voice. We've got 4 pro 'ambassadors' via WTC. There is only 1 who has stuck their neck out to my knowledge or tried to do much. So, we'll see.

Added: Is a $25k IM purse or $15k 70.3 purse worth it? It's an individual question. As a general comment about wins, pro bonuses, etc. I doubt there are many World Champ bonuses that go past 5th, unless it's a very small amount of $$. Many are win only for all other races. So, you can argue that it can be worth it to do a $25k/$15k race if you win. And, that's also the best argument to use for more equitable purses...the athlete who wins (or maybe podiums with top-3) is going to make something over and above the prize money. Honestly though...big money at fewer competitions legitimizes sport.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
Last edited by: -BrandonMarshTX: Jul 22, 14 14:11
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
You may not know this history, but the first ever hawaii prize money came from one guy who wished to remain anonymous, and he alone kicked in a $100k+. Our sport is full of those kind of people and companies, but they are not going to be so generous as to just give money to a corporations bottom line..

Yep, I kicked in $100 to the TRS gofundme... I've sponsored athletes in the past, and paid for lots of worthwhile projects. I'm done on Ironman races now. Until the WTC prove they are doing something other than putting on races, competing with other race organizers, buying out races by being the "big money"guys, and start treating IM pro's with at least some level of professionalism, paying out promptly WW, handling drug testing with transparency etc. I'm out and apart from a few special cases, I'm not interested in helping you become a pro.

It's easy for me to do, I'm not part of their cartel, not dependent one way or another on their success. Anyone in my position can find a million better ways to spend their money, even if though love triathlon.

THANKS FOR REMINDING EVERYONE MONTY!!
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlwaysCurious wrote:
travis_lt wrote:
If the pro race isn't at Kona the tri media and industry, the people selling expensive shit to age groupers, lose interest and shifts focus to wherever the pro field is. No one cares about an amateur event at Kona and no one in that field would be selling products to gullible consumers. That's value enough to pay every single pro in the field at Kona.

True, with an exception: I would still buy one of everything from Ben Greenfield's booth. Plus a Gluten Tolerant bracelet.

I just assumed we were all funding Ben and his magic bracelet 3000. Now with dimpled carbon and extra tolerant goodness.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You missed my point Monty. I wasn't asking how sponsorship works. I was asking where the value is. That is the "why".

If someone in my company wants to take a $100k and sponsor ironman, awesome. They just have to demonstrate what the ROI is. In my opinion, and proven by the lack of big dollar sponsorships and high turnover of sponsors, there is very very little.

If the return was high, you'd see more sponsors.

To use a bad cliche, the market has spoken.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fastyellow wrote:
You missed my point Monty. I wasn't asking how sponsorship works. I was asking where the value is. That is the "why".

If someone in my company wants to take a $100k and sponsor ironman, awesome. They just have to demonstrate what the ROI is. In my opinion, and proven by the lack of big dollar sponsorships and high turnover of sponsors, there is very very little.

If the return was high, you'd see more sponsors.

To use a bad cliche, the market has spoken.

Based on the way the event is currently produced and shown on terrestrial TV... I won't bang on about that. It's also spoken in respect to the people involved in the sport. They are simply not interesting enough. Maybe Apollo Ohno will be this years hit, but will he become persistent and continue racing IM? So far all the celebrity entries to IM have been pretty much Kona and done and that leaves the bran with some interesting publicity for a 1-hour TV show, a couple of press releases, a 70.3 finish and not much else.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Confirmed, screw-up.

https://twitter.com/mikebuteau/status/491682778627715073
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd wrote:
Will be interesting to see how that vote resolves. In keeping with the spirit if this, it would make sense to pay down to 9th now.

Pay 10 Deep!

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
oh man, you just PWND that Cobble dude

Dark Mark wrote:
Cobble wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, a bunch of internet clowns that do nothing but piss people off from behind an (originally) anonymous twitter account should be the last people to try to 'make a change'. If I was Messick I would laugh about this whole thing. So you collect some money for IMLP 7th place finisher and then what? Will you do the same for all the other IM races? Nobody cares about what you do but yourself (to fullfill your need of short term attention). In fact continuously trying to shame Messick and expecting the outcome to be that he listens to you is about as dumb as things get.


I would love to see the pros in our sport get paid more, but this is absolutely not the way to do it. You have zero credibility and trustworthiness.


UPDATE: Without any comment (thus far), Ironman has bumped the prize purse from $25,000 to $75,000. It now also pays 8 deep. Find the updated prize purse on page 10 of the athlete guide.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/americas/ironman/lake-placid/athletes/athlete-guide.aspx#axzz38DQ8xNMV




...dipshit.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
holy f*&%, you win the internet

Edit: TRS, can this be a t-shirt?

Dark Mark wrote:
Cobble wrote:
I think this is ridiculous, a bunch of internet clowns that do nothing but piss people off from behind an (originally) anonymous twitter account should be the last people to try to 'make a change'. If I was Messick I would laugh about this whole thing. So you collect some money for IMLP 7th place finisher and then what? Will you do the same for all the other IM races? Nobody cares about what you do but yourself (to fullfill your need of short term attention). In fact continuously trying to shame Messick and expecting the outcome to be that he listens to you is about as dumb as things get.

I would love to see the pros in our sport get paid more, but this is absolutely not the way to do it. You have zero credibility and trustworthiness.



Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Last edited by: ericM40-44: Jul 22, 14 15:32
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unfortunately, Ironman is now saying it was an "error" and has corrected it.


Earlier today

Now


I, for one, do like apples.

Internet User
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ok you got her number, still have to make the big leap and move to SF.

Now, let's f*# up some smaht kids and pay 10 deep

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You.. I like you.

Internet User
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cue the question "What's a content management system?"

Still at least we know from the twitter exchange that this is on the agenda of at least a couple of the financial medias horizon.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here is an interesting read about turning Pro and Ironman.
http://lavamagazine.com/the-ironmadman-going-pro-in-triathlonbusiness/
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi this is my first post on slowtwitch.

For me being a pro triathlete it'd be great to see more prize money from WTC but as a couple of other people have mentioned its not the only issue and in fact to me its not the main one. It comes down to improved exposure opportunities:

1. Increased Pre-event promotion

2. TV coverage for all major events, surely more appealing for a title sponsor. WTC main product seems to be event management why not outsource the media components. And before anyone says they wouldnt watch a live IM think of the TdF live for 3 weeks. Kona, Melbourne, Frankfurt don't have beautiful views either? Even a live last 2hrs with a 1hr re-cap of the swim and bike?

3. Prize Money spread less top heavy - Make it Top10 to attract a quality/ sizeable field to all events and Top20 for Championship level. This is what WTC wants in a pro field doesnt it. It wouldnt have to mean an increase in prize money, usually the winner will have bonuses on top so wins are always rewarded. But it would mean a drop in prize money for the top 3.

4. Athletes sponsor recognition on results and race reports. Like in cycling you would have 1. Alberto Contador (Tinkoff-Saxo Bank) it should be 1. Craig Alexander (Specialized / Newton) or whatever the athlete wants represented. This could be a WTC database or even something for a Pro union to record for media outlets to use.

5. On the topic of a union whats going on with PROTA I asked a question on twitter weeks ago and its like a ghost town in there. What a shame.

Prize money should only be a fraction of what an athlete can earn via other endorsements, and it looks like its not so the system is wrong. We shouldn't be racing for a pay cheque as a main source of income on race weekend. Im not too sure with the numbers but it seems logical that a high profile event of $100k prize money should have exposure opportunities of another 4x for the athlete like other sports like cycling, golf, motor sport etc.

WTC should be the platform to provide the exposure for professional athletes (and in parts already do a great job). More interviews, Live TV, Better live feeds would go a long way. These are valuable to pro athletes and foundations to grow both a WTC and athlete fan base. It might require extra outlay for WTC but surely it could mean another revenue stream for them in the future. They like growing dont they?


Alex

http://www.alexreithmeier.com https://twitter.com/ReithmeierLive
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Dark Mark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Error my ass. Wow just confirms my desire not to give them my $. Fuck you WTC
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [btmoney] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why would it not be an error? What would they have to gain to do this then change their minds?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply

Prev Next