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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [vittorio] [ In reply to ]
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I think Ben's race plan was to push the swim and bike as hard as he could and hold on for the run. He executed it brilliantly and I can't imagine even he and his coach thought it would result in 4 minutes up going into the run.

As for Javi, I have to think his plan was to simply swim as hard as anyone else was willing to (Kanute) as the 70.3 swim is really nothing for the front pack ITU swimmers, ride "his" numbers on the bike until the chase pack caught him then sit in the chase pack and stay there if he could. Again, I have to think he wasn't expecting to have over 4 minutes to make up on anyone, especially once Sebi joined the chase.

Two guys executing different strategies that actually ended up working out for both. Made the race great to watch.

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [CVH1296] [ In reply to ]
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CVH1296 wrote:
Lots of talk from the commentary about Ben Kanute hurting a lot based on how his running looks. He always has that run style in the ITU races though. He does definitely seem to be hurting but that 'uncomfortable' run style they're talking about is seen a lot with him. Agree with ya that you have to be cheering for the man after doing all that work by himself on the bike.

Gomez after a slow transition is charging right now! Dropped Kienle like it was nothing.
Awesome to see him keep 2nd and I was thinking the same as they were dissecting his running... he's looked like that every time I've seen him run.

Gomez did have an awful T2, I was watching that bunch come in and he wasn't the only one fumbling about. There was a guy in a blue kit that dropped something, turned around, turned around again... seemed like he was wasting a bunch of time. In a half I guess it's not super important as evident by Gomez running through the time lost and then some.

I also found it rather odd that the announcers seemed to be talking about the pack essentially drafting and athletes getting upset with one another if one is doing more work than the other... etc. Granted this is the first 70.3 stream I've watched so that could just me never having "heard" it before.

They're not supposed to be drafting, this isn't ITU or TdF.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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xeon wrote:
They're not supposed to be drafting, this isn't ITU or TdF.

I like all the "studies" coming out that show there actually is a benefit riding behind someone. Even at TWELVE meters!!! No shit.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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I just notice that an AGer out-swam Kanute by 7 seconds:



Looks like this dude is a former French Open Water champion. Good job.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Lol,

I think if you look at the video that's the same guy who ran with him for a couple miles!

Maurice
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Lol,

I think if you look at the video that's the same guy who ran with him for a couple miles!

Maurice

Is it, really? LOL!
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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That is an awesome swim. But us age groupers got to wear wetsuits.

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I just notice that an AGer out-swam Kanute by 7 seconds:
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [Alfredo] [ In reply to ]
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Alfredo wrote:
Agree bluefever, spot on with your comment on the swim and racing the race and your competitors, but would still advocate for 20 meter distance.

Well Lionel thinks it's an issue, that's why he did ITU Long Distance WC rather than 70.3 WC.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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So to me the issue is and what I laugh at is when athletes bring this up, fans call them out for sucking at swimming or just wanting it to be in favor of their strength and they miss the entire point.

Under current rules the draft zone currently is blurring "draft legal" and "non draft". And Imo we have the potential to widen the draft zone to make it more "non draft", which I think is the biggest point of what LS is on (and why he skipped 70.3). Do we want a more realistic "non draft" where you have to put in a good honest effort in each discipline or do you want it to be where if you can make the draft train, you can "sit in" til T2, and if you want to call that "non draft".....oookkk. It's why I laugh when people shit on LS and tell him to shut up and swim faster, etc., and yet the point he's making completely goes over their head.

If races think the current rules allow for the best "non draft" race especially for the pros, fair enough. I think it's being shown that other distances make a much fairer and individual effort, and at some point, races that don't move to that distance, likely should have to answer to why they don't do the same. Atleast have a good conversation about it, and maybe that's already happened and the current rules are going to always be the "compromised" appropriate distance.

But I think you as a sport have an problem when some of your own best 70.3 athletes are not doing races because of the way the rules are setup. Now again I'm not saying this to make it in favor of strong cyclists. I'm actually looking to make in favor of more actual fair "non draft" conditions. And yes I know there is always going to be a benefit and there has never been an true "individual" race ever because of the drafting in the swim and run, etc. But I think if you understand the sport, to simply ridicule athletes like I've seen on ST over the past year or 2 when talking drafting issues in the sport is completely missing the boat. No shit poor swimmers need to work on their swim, they'll be the first to say that. But let's look at BK, a wider draft zone likely improves his overall racing as well, as it "tires" out the draft train who is chasing him down on the runs at every race. So a more wider draft zone isn't for LS so he can win. It's to make it what we all think it should be....a more fairer, "non draft" race.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
So to me the issue is and what I laugh at is when athletes bring this up, fans call them out for sucking at swimming or just wanting it to be in favor of their strength and they miss the entire point.

Under current rules the draft zone currently is blurring "draft legal" and "non draft". And Imo we have the potential to widen the draft zone to make it more "non draft", which I think is the biggest point of what LS is on (and why he skipped 70.3). Do we want a more realistic "non draft" where you have to put in a good honest effort in each discipline or do you want it to be where if you can make the draft train, you can "sit in" til T2, and if you want to call that "non draft".....oookkk. It's why I laugh when people shit on LS and tell him to shut up and swim faster, etc., and yet the point he's making completely goes over their head.

If races think the current rules allow for the best "non draft" race especially for the pros, fair enough. I think it's being shown that other distances make a much fairer and individual effort, and at some point, races that don't move to that distance, likely should have to answer to why they don't do the same. Atleast have a good conversation about it, and maybe that's already happened and the current rules are going to always be the "compromised" appropriate distance.

But I think you as a sport have an problem when some of your own best 70.3 athletes are not doing races because of the way the rules are setup. Now again I'm not saying this to make it in favor of strong cyclists. I'm actually looking to make in favor of more actual fair "non draft" conditions. And yes I know there is always going to be a benefit and there has never been an true "individual" race ever because of the drafting in the swim and run, etc. But I think if you understand the sport, to simply ridicule athletes like I've seen on ST over the past year or 2 when talking drafting issues in the sport is completely missing the boat. No shit poor swimmers need to work on their swim, they'll be the first to say that. But let's look at BK, a wider draft zone likely improves his overall racing as well, as it "tires" out the draft train who is chasing him down on the runs at every race. So a more wider draft zone isn't for LS so he can win. It's to make it what we all think it should be....a more fairer, "non draft" race.

Great points Brooks. This is analagous to the points jersey in the Vuelta. In the rest of the grand tours the points Jersey is really a sprinter competition that was created to give the non climbing fast closers another race to participate in. Basically none of the top sprinters come to the Vuelta due to lack of pure sprinter stages and the structure of the points race which is basically another jersey for the GC guys making it redundant. In that vein, the 70.3 Worlds with its depth of field is in effect a watered down extension of ITU racing rather than a shorter faster version of Ironman racing (already pseudo draft legal at Kona, but closer to a non draft race than 70.3 Worlds).

At other non championship races with less depth of field you can have the 12 meter draft zone and it works so those who do a descent 3 discipline day can shine, or as a minimum, everyone can get the most out of their strong discipline. In championship racing at 70.3 World's you now take the top 3-4 from every race and put them all together and you have 50 guys who are equally strong filling all the gaps between each other and loosely you have an ITU-esque train of some form.

Last year, a fast rider like Kienle had less gap to make up with a salt water wetsuit swim. This year, no wetsuit, fresh water and up current and he's got a tougher swim, with a larger gap where he uses his legs more in the swim and uses his legs more before he closes, leaving less potential legs for the run. Make that draft zone 20m like Challenge Samourin, and the picture changes big time and all athletes have to work harder on each discipline.

So, a bunch of guys don't go this race, just like a bunch of sprinters can't bother with the Vuelta. I don't think the Vuelta organizers care to have much of a sprinter competition and it almost feels like WTC does not care to have a tougher bike leg where the pros are strung out further. It should be dead easy to say, "OK, tomorrow, we're doing 20m draft zone for pros". Done. End of story. How hard is that to switch to and it should be EASIER to enforce
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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it almost feels like WTC does not care to have a tougher bike leg where the pros are strung out further. It should be dead easy to say, "OK, tomorrow, we're doing 20m draft zone for pros". Done. End of story. How hard is that to switch to and it should be EASIER to enforce

-------

Like I said, I just want to know the reason why it's not 20m. Like if it's current rules because they say it should be that distance; fine....I'm cool with that, but then I think you open yourself up to questions about "honest" racing (which is what LS is doing). If they think this is the fair/compromised distance, great; and by them using this as the distance that in essence what they are saying.


And like I said, I'm not in favor of helping cyclists or doing this for LS. BK actually benefits as much or greater in a "fairer" draft distance than a guy like LS, because he's already at the front of the field. Let's make these guys work for it, if we want to truly appreciate LC aka "non-draft" racing. But if people don't think it's a problem with the current setup, that's cool as well. I just think these athletes who are questioning the rules do have a legitimate leg to stand on, and not a "they are wankers they need to shut up and train more" response like from the ST peanut gallery.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
hadukla wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
What are the Age Group awards quantity? 3 or 5.
I wonder what folks think about racing Moats at the race.


i wanna say 5 but could be 10 being a WC.

M30-34 ran almost as fast as Gomez, beat Ryan Giuliano. Crazy fast and not much race history, future pro?


There were 2 guys in the 60-64 that finished with the exact same time. So, do both get 5th?

We didn't have the "exact same time". John finished ahead of me by .22 sec. He had a fantastic run. My hats off to him!

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
it almost feels like WTC does not care to have a tougher bike leg where the pros are strung out further. It should be dead easy to say, "OK, tomorrow, we're doing 20m draft zone for pros". Done. End of story. How hard is that to switch to and it should be EASIER to enforce

-------

Like I said, I just want to know the reason why it's not 20m. Like if it's current rules because they say it should be that distance; fine....I'm cool with that, but then I think you open yourself up to questions about "honest" racing (which is what LS is doing). If they think this is the fair/compromised distance, great; and by them using this as the distance that in essence what they are saying.


And like I said, I'm not in favor of helping cyclists or doing this for LS. BK actually benefits as much or greater in a "fairer" draft distance than a guy like LS, because he's already at the front of the field. Let's make these guys work for it, if we want to truly appreciate LC aka "non-draft" racing. But if people don't think it's a problem with the current setup, that's cool as well. I just think these athletes who are questioning the rules do have a legitimate leg to stand on, and not a "they are wankers they need to shut up and train more" response like from the ST peanut gallery.

Putting LS and SK aside for a moment, (or before them Hellriegel, Stadler, Sindballe, Lieto etc etc etc), it really is a shame when the faster swim-biking athletes are doomed out of the gate (none of the guys I mentioned above, were fast swim-biker....just fast bikers). Ben Kanute's chance of the win was basically removed by the rules. Josh Amberger has the same issue in almost every race he does with any deep field. He's going to swim-bike really fast, but if there are enough guys at 12 meters behind him, they will leap frog each other until they close before T2, or have a minimized gap at T2. There seems to be no logical reason why Ironman cannot make the championship draft zone 20m. It's like the refs in the Stanley cup playoffs who enforce things differently because it is the playoffs to keep the teams honest. This should be possible in triathlon. In regular season racing with less depth of field, 12 m works fine.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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stringcheese wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
hadukla wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
What are the Age Group awards quantity? 3 or 5.
I wonder what folks think about racing Moats at the race.


i wanna say 5 but could be 10 being a WC.

M30-34 ran almost as fast as Gomez, beat Ryan Giuliano. Crazy fast and not much race history, future pro?


There were 2 guys in the 60-64 that finished with the exact same time. So, do both get 5th?


We didn't have the "exact same time". John finished ahead of me by .22 sec. He had a fantastic run. My hats off to him!

I agree. I just read the results when posted and they said you both had the same time. I had the same thing happen to me in Penticton.
Great race. Yep, John can run. It was fun racing with him in Penticton and running with him.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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One thing that is interesting is that a 20m draft zone takes off some "pressure" on the officials. Now I may get my hand slapped for saying this but I think currently 12m the athletes can "game" the 12m draft zone. And that's not meant to say officials are at fault or that the athletes are directly trying to "cheat". I think it's simply the reality of the situation of guys riding in a paceline at 26 mph and an official sitting beside/behind/ahead and trying to "measure" 12m. I would find it almost impossible to have 3 officials from the exact same viewpoint able to consistently come up with the same measurements on riders. Again this is not a knock on the officials, this is more in line to say, what if the average distance really is 11.78934m in between each rider? It's like in MLB the rulebook has a directly defined strike zone, yet what do we see. We have all kinds of different strike zones, and pitchers know who calls a "tight" zone and who are "pitcher friendly". And again, this is not a knock on them, this is the reality and exactly why I think in 10 years, MLB will be using robots/machines to call balls/strikes.

So a 20m zone allows for more margin of error that doesn't have as a direct impact on the benefits of the draft zone. A rider at 11.87m gets more draft than rider at 12.00m, and carry that to 20m, if the margin of error has the riders riding truly at 19.83m instead of 20m, that difference is less critical the further out you go in the draft zone.

So essentially 12m zone right now puts absolute critical importance on officials to measure 12m, 12m. And again if I get my hand slapped for that, ok fine. But I think we are seeing draft zone distance options, and if we can discuss these things, great. So again, I'm not saying officials are doing a bad job. I actually think they are having to hold a standard that I don't think can be held in the current dynamics at this point in the development of the sport. You have what 6-8 guys all in a paceline, and 1 or 2 guys is suppose to sit there and watch and know that every single athlete is staying at 12m....that's just unrealistic, so then things start creeping up.

And finally yes it's the athlete's "responsibility" to know the rules and to ride 12m and not "creep up", and when they do they are "cheating" whether they get caught or not. But what I'm suggesting is that if 12m is a very tight window to actually measure for both athlete/official, why not decrease the margin of error and help both in the process?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So that was a long winded response basically to advise having an discussion of the pros/cons of both a 12m and 20m draft zone, and why one is chosen over the other. Again, if 12m is going to be the chosen distance, great, everyone will continue to deal with it as currently seen. I

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
stringcheese wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
hadukla wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
What are the Age Group awards quantity? 3 or 5.
I wonder what folks think about racing Moats at the race.


i wanna say 5 but could be 10 being a WC.

M30-34 ran almost as fast as Gomez, beat Ryan Giuliano. Crazy fast and not much race history, future pro?


There were 2 guys in the 60-64 that finished with the exact same time. So, do both get 5th?


We didn't have the "exact same time". John finished ahead of me by .22 sec. He had a fantastic run. My hats off to him!

I agree. I just read the results when posted and they said you both had the same time. I had the same thing happen to me in Penticton.
Great race. Yep, John can run. It was fun racing with him in Penticton and running with him.

I see what you did there.... ;)
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [JBell] [ In reply to ]
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JBell wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
stringcheese wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
hadukla wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
What are the Age Group awards quantity? 3 or 5.
I wonder what folks think about racing Moats at the race.


i wanna say 5 but could be 10 being a WC.

M30-34 ran almost as fast as Gomez, beat Ryan Giuliano. Crazy fast and not much race history, future pro?


There were 2 guys in the 60-64 that finished with the exact same time. So, do both get 5th?


We didn't have the "exact same time". John finished ahead of me by .22 sec. He had a fantastic run. My hats off to him!


I agree. I just read the results when posted and they said you both had the same time. I had the same thing happen to me in Penticton.
Great race. Yep, John can run. It was fun racing with him in Penticton and running with him.


I see what you did there.... ;)

:)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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All you guys arguing for a different draft zone and how unfair this 12m is, what do you think the result of this race should have been?

As I see it the best overall triathlete won, a super swimmer/biker went out on a flier and got paid off with 2nd, solid ex ITU guy who has moved up quite profitably gets 3rd, and guys that lose 4 minutes in the swim or blow up fill out many of the next places. Seems to me it was a pretty fair race all around and the results reflect that.

There is nothing wrong with a 12m draft zone if enforced. What did Keinle think after hammering and closing 4 minutes, that everyone else was hammering in front of him? No they were just riding a comfortable pace waiting for him to catch, and be ready to match his pace afterwards. That is why he cannot break them at this junction in the race, he is toasted a bit from the chase, and everyone else is fresh and ready to up their watts to match his pace. He can't get mad because Gomez doesnt come to the front to set pace, why would he? He is the best runner in the race by far, why chance a blow up on the bike? That is like getting mad at some guy in a break at the TDF, for not pulling when his teammate has the yellow jersey in the peloton and 2nd place is in that break. Some things just don't make sense, and Gomez ever setting pace when the group is all together, is one of those just doesn't make sense scenarios. Silly to get mad about that. Javier is not Keinle's domestic, now if Sanders had been there it is a whole different situation. They could have traded pace and broke the group off of them and changed the dynamic. But he wasn't there so you have to play the cards dealt on the day..

The best triathletes are winning the big races, how it ought to be. If you lose 4 minutes in a swim you probably are not the best triathlete under any circumstances, sorry guys but just too many that lose no time who can also bike and run like monsters..
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
Someone is claiming Tim Don ran a 28:04 10k (uhhh okay)

That little interaction between Keinle and Gomez was interesting.... how many times has someone told Gomez to get going?

Kanute is winning by a lot yet they are barely discussing him. I think he comes into t2 with a 5 minute gap...

I've heard that enough times to believe it - some road race. Who knows about accuracy, but he can run.

Haile Gebrselassie won in 28:02 in the 10k road race Tim Don ran that it.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
All you guys arguing for a different draft zone and how unfair this 12m is, what do you think the result of this race should have been?

As I see it the best overall triathlete won, a super swimmer/biker went out on a flier and got paid off with 2nd, solid ex ITU guy who has moved up quite profitably gets 3rd, and guys that lose 4 minutes in the swim or blow up fill out many of the next places. Seems to me it was a pretty fair race all around and the results reflect that.

There is nothing wrong with a 12m draft zone if enforced. What did Keinle think after hammering and closing 4 minutes, that everyone else was hammering in front of him? No they were just riding a comfortable pace waiting for him to catch, and be ready to match his pace afterwards. That is why he cannot break them at this junction in the race, he is toasted a bit from the chase, and everyone else is fresh and ready to up their watts to match his pace. He can't get mad because Gomez doesnt come to the front to set pace, why would he? He is the best runner in the race by far, why chance a blow up on the bike? That is like getting mad at some guy in a break at the TDF, for not pulling when his teammate has the yellow jersey in the peloton and 2nd place is in that break. Some things just don't make sense, and Gomez ever setting pace when the group is all together, is one of those just doesn't make sense scenarios. Silly to get mad about that. Javier is not Keinle's domestic, now if Sanders had been there it is a whole different situation. They could have traded pace and broke the group off of them and changed the dynamic. But he wasn't there so you have to play the cards dealt on the day..

The best triathletes are winning the big races, how it ought to be. If you lose 4 minutes in a swim you probably are not the best triathlete under any circumstances, sorry guys but just too many that lose no time who can also bike and run like monsters..

Do you think the guys in the "bike pack" would have rode differently if it was 20m not 12m? What about Gomez, do you think he would have soft pedaled until the pack caught him if it was 20m?
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, I'm not doing this for any result changing, but for truer "non-draft" racing (if that's possible). Your comments on how the race dynamics played out, is what athletes have suggested; is there any other ways to make it more "non-draft" or are we stuck at 12m and just having to deal with the draft pack tactics that you just detailed. So again, I'm asking is 12m the most fair possible draft solution we can have. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, I just know that events have made 20m work in the past, so if works there, why cant it work elsewhere.......

Your in the camp that 12m is good enough, great. I'm in the camp it's not if there are other options that are being used throughout LC racing, why we cant talk about implementing those in these championship level races.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Monty, I'm not doing this for any result changing, but for truer "non-draft" racing (if that's possible). Your comments on how the race dynamics played out, is what athletes have suggested; is there any other ways to make it more "non-draft" or are we stuck at 12m and just having to deal with the draft pack tactics that you just detailed. So again, I'm asking is 12m the most fair possible draft solution we can have. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, I just know that events have made 20m work in the past, so if works there, why cant it work elsewhere.......

Your in the camp that 12m is good enough, great. I'm in the camp it's not if there are other options that are being used throughout LC racing, why we cant talk about implementing those in these championship level races.

Even with a 20m draft zone SK (or LS) will still burn most of their matches in the first 30km, if they shed 3min+ on the swim. So while they will no doubt have a better chance to get some form of gap leading into the run, they'll still be in massive trouble come the run due to work done earlier and the lack of run ability (compartively to ITU type runners).

Like it or not I think the end is near for 2 discipline athletes in 70.3 with or without a 20m draft zone.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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In my mind, 20m makes the bike portion of the race more significant and dangerous. I want guys like Gomez having to pull on the bike, or otherwise give up a big gap going in to T2. Right now there is no incentive to really race the bike if you are an Uber runner. It makes for boring racing. It would be nice to see the Uber runners out of their comfort zone during the bike, as I think it would lead to more drama and uncertainty on the run.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: 70.3 worlds men's race thread [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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So what you are saying is that the sport is evolving right? So it's only fair to suggest with that evolution, does the drafting rules need to be adjusted as well?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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