I would disagree with that to an extent, but I can see where you are coming from. Strong bike efforts can be rewarded (SK's first Kona win, AB/JB in Rio/Leeds) but %wise breaks usually fail.

Where I would disagree is that I don't think 1/2 sport specialists should have more of an honest chance. Part of the reason SK is such a strong cyclist is probably also why he isn't a top level runner and is a crappy swimmer. I'd rather see well rounded athletes win like JG, AB or any top 10 ITU guys (of which BK arguably isn't).

One of many reasons I say make drafting legal. The only folks who really push what you offer are folks who cannot swim, or run, so they really are not complete triathletes like Gomez is. Our sport is not uber bikers, it is triathlon. So with drafting legal, it forces folks to have to learn to swim. Still have a great bike, and then have to have a great run. The ITU guys, and gals, are the complete triathlete, which is all that maters. I sure do not care about a single leg of our sport.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Athlete tracker is a joke

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

On that pancake flat course SK & LS would always have an advantage due to w/kg being irrelevant, and the focus being on pure watts. Their 6-10 kg advantage translates into alot.

Also only one ITU star was there and he messed up the final 10 miles of the bike.Should have bided his time and smoked LS on the run.

Great post.

The dynamics of an ITU race mean that you CANNOT have a weakness, otherwise you'll miss the selection for the run. It is essentially an elimination race. I've raced draft legal and it is way harder than a non drafting race. I'd love to see someone like LS thrown into the middle of an ITU bike leg to see if he could hang on. I wouldn't be surprised if he got dropped.

agreed

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I considered RM an ITU star but i guess opinions differ....

Ha ha I'll give you that.

I love the ITU guys. But when I turn on an Ironman broadcast or look at results I want to know who could cover the distance the fastest on their own. If I wanted to watch a tactical race with extremly fast times I'd watch ITU races. I don't watch ITU for the same reason that I only watch cycling on mountain stages or TT's - it doesnt really show who's the strongest. It shows who can play the game the best. Just my opinion.....

What happened to Jenson Button? Splits looked solid then nothing after the second run split? Lost his chip or DNF?

Fair enough, I just think you underestimate the biking ability of the ITU guys.

Folks that think any triathlon race is doing it on their own just is racing something different. They all draft on the swim so right there, our sport was never setup to race on their own. Bike has always had drafting, and always will. Again, my experience is the only folks who complain are the ones who cannot swim and or run. And these top bikers were nothing in real bike racing, so they complain about it in triathlon instead.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Fair enough. I guess what I'm getting at is I would like the draft train benefit to be reduced as I feel it is bad for the pro aspect of the sport. I think that opens up the playing field for better racing dynamics, when you have various strengths competing against one another. Frodo, Brownlee, Gomez etc are true studs and while it is awe inspiring to see what they can do, it's pretty boring to watch in long course. I think we would see the best races when the stud runners come in to T2 thinking they probably biked too hard, and the stud riders wondering if they're running at their peak to hold on. I think triathlon would do itself a favour by rewarding more gutsy performances. Think of guys like Steve Larson, Starky, LS, etc. Those guys push things to the brink and make for exciting races. It's no wonder they had/have huge fan bases. Think of Rinny on the women's side, running down all of the women (and some of the men!) at Kona for a come from behind victory.

Strong swimmers have their advantage on their leg of the race, strong runners theirs, but strong bikers are kind of handicapped in this regard.

Anyways, interesting discussion to have, though I doubt the rules will change any time soon.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

"Based on that podium, I think the myth of ITU not translating to long course is thoroughly busted. "

Alternatively, couldn't it be said that the ITU guys are changing the definition of long course? They complete a half Ironman at such speeds that it only leaves the full distance as long course?

I totally agree that it would be way more exciting to see a substanially more chaotic version of racing! Having imperfect athletes gives the race a see-saw dynamic that is exciting to watch.

The problem with Ironman racing from a spectating point of view is it's such a slow burn. I quite happily watch an 8-9 hour race, but most people don't have the patience.

I think a way to reward individual discipline specialists and to make good TV is to look at what they have done with super league triathlon. By trying different racing formats, it has given the swim or cycle guys a chance to win as well as packaging the whole thing in a neat 2 hour window.

[/quote]"Based on that podium, I think the myth of ITU not translating to long course is thoroughly busted. "

Alternatively, couldn't it be said that the ITU guys are changing the definition of long course? They complete a half Ironman at such speeds that it only leaves the full distance as long course?[/quote]
I think the ITU guys are starting to redfine the race dynamics of the 70.3 distance. It is being raced like an extended ITU race, in that it is essentially an elimination race.

I have a feeling the full Ironman distance is the only place where the longer distance guys can be safe from this. Not all ITU guys will make the transition to the full distance successfully, due to the duration and the distance's unique quirks. I dont think the same can be said for the 70.3 distance. There is just too much overlap.

Do you realize that Kienle beat Gomez at 2015 70.3 world's with the fastest run split of the day?

I said it during the bike course today. The entire group with Javier and Don were able to follow Kienle because the moto was behind and diagonally off filming Kienle giving them a massive draft to stay attached, when Kienle had made up 4 minutes in the first half. How do you lose 4 minutes or so in just over half the race and then magically lose none for the rest. It is not possible without pushing less air. Change that assistance and the picture changes.

See my thread about ditching Moto's in favour of drones :-).

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Do you realise JG was ill that day?

Please don't compare SK and JG running ability. They are not on the same level. Go back a year earlier in Mont Tremblant for case in point.

On a side note I have just seen SK's take on the race on facebook. Classy guy as always. Just needs to get faster on the swim.

I never said that Kienle is a better runner than Javier but on a given day if the others get less moto assist, kienle is on for running and the fastest runners are even a bit off, it is game on. Kienle is a superlative biker and still one of the best off the bike runners in 70.3 to 140.6 when other have to push the ride. If they can get a pull from motos, Kienle has no chance. Tim Don is not even in the same zip code at the finish line when he has to push wind all the way like he has to in Kona.

And coming off the swim 4 min down is just too much for anyone. Kienle needed a partner early to tag team up to others also tag teaming against him. Just watch what happens in Kona. Don won't even be close at T2.

I agree. That's likely why SK was pissed after the race. Javi may have prevailed in the end but the moto likely cost Sebi a podium.

I think TD will be better in Kona this year, but yeh he ain't top 3 material. That being said motos and 12m draft will still exist in Kona, but then again you have the winds.

If SK swims like today over 3.8k he will get obliterated. But I still have him down for a podium as he cant be that bad in 2 big races on the bounce. Whats your top 3 for Kona?

Class guy for sure, but at this point, I doubt Kienle can get faster on the swim. After this many years racing pro, he has likely maximized his swim improvements. The guys who are faster all grew up swimming. Kienle has basically picked all the fruit off the tree that an adult onset swimmer can. Low hanging fruit, middle or tree, almost top of the tree is all picked over. This swim with a decent upsteam with fresh water with no wetsuit is the worst combo an adult onset swimmer can face. That's racing. Last year, wetsuit in salt water is best case for adult onset swimmer. Kona no wetsuit, but salt water and no real upstream current (although you can end up on a treadmill if the tide is pulling out) is in the middle. Lionel made the right strategic move saving it for Kona, but maybe if Lionel was here, and if he could close to Kienle, the two benefit off each other. Not sure Lionel would have closed to Kienle as he'd have a slightly tougher time in the current.

In any case it's racing. This type of swim will hurt an adult onset swimmer. Everyone knew that going in. I would have loved to see what Ben Kanute and Josh Amberger could have done together on the swim-bike. If Ben had company, it may have also been interesting. Ben did an entire day of racing pushing his own wind. Big kudos to that guy.