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2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID!
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I did something stupid against my coaches advice I signed up for 2 IM in 4 week window. Pretty basic plan of: 2 weeks recovery, keep swimming where its been 8-12k a week, biking and running will back way off. Do a one week build and then a one week taper. Get as much protein in as possible those first few days after first one. Anyone else down this and had a decent second IM that can offer any other advice.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
I did something stupid against my coaches advice I signed up for 2 IM in 4 week window. Pretty basic plan of: 2 weeks recovery, keep swimming where its been 8-12k a week, biking and running will back way off. Do a one week build and then a one week taper. Get as much protein in as possible those first few days after first one. Anyone else down this and had a decent second IM that can offer any other advice.

No I haven't but one of the big sprints in our area is a week after the IM and a lot of people double up with no obvious signs of fatigue. Yeah it's only a sprint, but as far as conditioning goes, a lot of guys are still able to perform close to their best a week later. Obviously with an IM it will be tougher and you won't be fresh, but you'll be able to get through it OK. You're not going to go from 10 hours to `14 hours for example. Perhaps 10 hours to 10.45/11?
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
I did something stupid against my coaches advice I signed up for 2 IM in 4 week window. Pretty basic plan of: 2 weeks recovery, keep swimming where its been 8-12k a week, biking and running will back way off. Do a one week build and then a one week taper. Get as much protein in as possible those first few days after first one. Anyone else down this and had a decent second IM that can offer any other advice.

I have done two in 3 weeks a few times, two in 4 and two in 5. Honestly I liked two in 3 the best. I just planned for the marathon in the second one to be around 10 min slower, but the swim and bike I hit all the target swim times and bike power numbers. The hard part is the run. Two in 3 weeks, not much time to do anything. Recover, swim, bike commute a bit, walk daily, and then start jogging 10 days out from the first IM and end 4 days out from the second....literally just jogging. Between 10 days out and 17 days out from number 1 I added bike intensity (like short bursts of 1 min to build some sharpness). 14 days out, I'd do a 3 hour 90K hilly ride to asses the progress of the recovery with a 20 min TT with a short climb to assess depth of recovery and power numbers.

4 weeks out, I did the same, but the swimming intensity would go way up and get into a big swimming in between and a week of Olympic tri type bike training not on the 3 week "plan". Again, running was still a lot of jogging short runs like 15 min to the pool and 15 min back or standalone 20-30 min runs and a lot of walks. But really nothing long.

The two times I did 5 weeks apart, I did a "typical" IM week after 3 weeks or the above and then 1 week taper and honestly 5 weeks out sucked the most because I was losing fitness from build 1 and I found the second race really hard, even though in all cases, I hit the marathon split performance target of only going ~10 min slower on number 2. When the second 1 was 3 weeks out, I did only a short 7-10 day taper for IM number 1 so that IM 2 was only 4 weeks out from the taper off the main build. That worked really well. I felt pretty sharp for both. Also, I did not go to the well on IM number 1 in the 3 and 4 week cases. You do the math and with 6 miles to go, you can kill youself to go 6-8 seconds faster per mile and you barely save 30-45 seconds. Or you "cruise in" at 6-8 seconds slower per mile and you're only 45 seconds slower at the finish line, but essentially the finish line time is identical (if you are racing for time vs position).
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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In any case, for 4 weeks or 28 days I would not break it down by weeks. You need to break it down by days

Day 0-7 light walking spinning easy light swim, some water running
Day 7-24 full blown swim plan....maybe more than normal, more water running, jack up intensity in the back half.
Day 10-23 train on the bike like an Olympic tri athlete in between mutiple weeks of racing gradually building intensity starting at day 14. Focus on intensity, you need zero IM style volume
Day 14-21 run Olympic tri type volume for in between multiple races, do strides for eccentric workload without cardio stress, keep volume down....lots of short frequent session. Resist the urge to run long.

Walk a decent amount every day. If you want 30-60 min per day, that's maybe 4+ hours on your feet walking per week. This weight bearing load will be good to keep your feet in shape to deal with IM number 2 without losing too much. Feet at the foundation of running. Human body is designed to walk a lot daily, so use that in between to keep your legs hardened for marathon 2 while recovering from marathon 1.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 6, 17 20:01
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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I had 2 IMs 6 weeks apart so not as aggressive as your schedule, but turned out I had a PR on the second one which still stands. The key for me was after the first one to keep moving. Easy swims, easy bikes, easy runs. And the occasional fast interval. Sounds like you have a good plan.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So your telling me it can be done Paul! Ten min slower that sounds about right, figured around mile 18-20 of the marathon is where I might start really feeling it.

Question: in racing IM #2 it sounds like you did not bake off bike power or your swim? I had been thinking to back off bike power about 10w for second one. I am racing for placing only could care less about time to so might be able to back off some in Marathon mid way if I am in a good spot.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [Kentucky Mac] [ In reply to ]
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Kentucky Mac wrote:
I had 2 IMs 6 weeks apart so not as aggressive as your schedule, but turned out I had a PR on the second one which still stands. The key for me was after the first one to keep moving. Easy swims, easy bikes, easy runs. And the occasional fast interval. Sounds like you have a good plan.

So really you did nothing hard, just kept it easy and went out and raced......Did you have pretty good build leading up to IM #1?

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Yea Sprint would not be bad! I did a sprint 2 weeks after IMTX this yr and still had pretty much all the power on the bike and running speed nothing dropped off. I noticed it was at the 5-6 week mark after IMTX everything just went to shit.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't one of your races Kona

Is it Kona then another one or are we taking next year ?

I could have done another one after placid last year ( or at least I felt I could ) after 3 weeks

But Kona wiped me out completely and could just about walk to the corner deli four weeks later without feeling tired
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
Isn't one of your races Kona

Is it Kona then another one or are we taking next year ?

I could have done another one after placid last year ( or at least I felt I could ) after 3 weeks

But Kona wiped me out completely and could just about walk to the corner deli four weeks later without feeling tired


Yea Kona then Los Cabos.....so hot race into another hot race, its going to be a bit painful. Cabo could be a total disaster i realize or could be ok.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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I just did IMWI. I'm close enough to smell a KQ spot so I decided to try again in Louisville. 5 week spread. All was going great after WI until last weekend. I emptied my tank on a longer ride last Saturday and have just felt flat and empty since. I'm really starting to wonder if 2 IM's 5 weeks apart was such a good idea.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of people do the Kona-IMAZ double every year. The fast people always seem to have a good race at AZ. I would reach out to one of them to see if they have any advice.

Darkhorse Tri ( https://www.darkhorsetriathlon.com/ - my former coach, and an overall good guy-I have no financial interest) has done this with pretty good success. Of course, he is not human..... so your results may vary. Drop him a line and see if he has any advice for you.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
UKINNY wrote:
Isn't one of your races Kona

Is it Kona then another one or are we taking next year ?

I could have done another one after placid last year ( or at least I felt I could ) after 3 weeks

But Kona wiped me out completely and could just about walk to the corner deli four weeks later without feeling tired



Yea Kona then Los Cabos.....so hot race into another hot race, its going to be a bit painful. Cabo could be a total disaster i realize or could be ok.

OK, Kona + Cabos provides context. So in Kona you are not racing for anything other than time (not position), in Cabos racing for position not time. This actually helps a ton since you do not have to go into the tank in Kona. As I mentioned, throttle back on the last 6 miles of the run (even 15 seconds per mile will make a huge diff for race number 2). Also, in terms of the strategy, both in training and racing all distances shortly after an IM, I have found swim comes back first and bike very shortly after. I actually did my olympic tri PB (1:59 back in the day) 2 weeks after IM Penticton and most of that came from being on fire on the swim and bike. So my personal experience has been that I can bank on a fast swim and bike (which kind of makes sense) and the run is going to be hit and miss and likely I will be missing the pointy end of my run stride under cardio distress late in the game, so like managing stocks, I just put more in the bread and butter sure payback stocks and put a bit less on where the gamble is bigger. I have chosen to go with the target swim and bike power and chosen for the run to be a bit slower starting midway or later.

Also since race 2 is Cabos meaning no wetsuit swim and a hilly bike, AND you are racing for position, I would think that targeting the same swim and bike power gives you better gaps for the run in terms of placements. It is also a hilly course meaning targeting full power gains you more on the uphill vs it vaporizing in the marginal gain mode on a windy day on the flats. I'd "full power" the swim and bike and then "under pace" the first half of the run to allow for max refueling and fat utilization to get to run second half with a hope of full pacing it.

I do think intensity training on the swim and bike in between race once recovered will allow this strategy to feel easy. Basically by the time you get to race 2, you've only done Kona and a bunch of intensity workouts in the last 6 weeks. The intensity will ensure your FTP does not drop in swim + bike, but keeping it short will allow for better recovery. You can't lose endurance in 6 weeks....that's a 5 year thing, but you can lose threshold. Lower threshold for race 2, means lower fat utilization at the same target power as race 1....you want the FTP as high as possible for race 2 since a high tide lifts all boats.

I might add 2 more things....after race 1, target 60 hours of sleep per week. After race 1 to race 2, maybe take out all refine sugars from your diet and switch that caloric intake to good oils and get your body in fat utilization mode for energy. Finally the trip back from Kona likely on a red eye carrying the fatigue of an IM further delays recovery in week 1, so you have to factor that in.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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I would write to a pro named Petr Vabrousek on Facebook directly. The guy has done over a hundred Ironmans in his life and has done some of those on back to back weekends. I think he is the one to seek for advice.
Last edited by: Rachela: Oct 7, 17 6:01
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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did kona wipe you out...... or was it the fact that it was your second ironman of the season at a high level?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
I did something stupid against my coaches advice I signed up for 2 IM in 4 week window. Pretty basic plan of: 2 weeks recovery, keep swimming where its been 8-12k a week, biking and running will back way off. Do a one week build and then a one week taper. Get as much protein in as possible those first few days after first one. Anyone else down this and had a decent second IM that can offer any other advice.

I have done it many times, 2 in 2, but it really just depends on how fit you are and how far you dig in the first one. Swimming is a good idea in the recovery phase, and even maybe bump it up too. If you dig deep in the first one it is best to start the second one with the "see what I can do attitude" and back way off and really work into each segment. If you didn't dig that hard in the first one, or just couldn't, you will likely be able to go faster in the second.


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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So in summary your saying: if you kill yourself in the first your screwed for the second! I am all in on Kona so no turning back, unless I am rocking it with a few miles to go then might back off but thats not likely to happen. My fitness is pretty much at all time high, now I don't have the years of endurance training you do but for me its really good. Anything you do diet wise that can help? Along the lines of what Paul said?

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
So in summary your saying: if you kill yourself in the first your screwed for the second! I am all in on Kona so no turning back, unless I am rocking it with a few miles to go then might back off but thats not likely to happen. My fitness is pretty much at all time high, now I don't have the years of endurance training you do but for me its really good. Anything you do diet wise that can help? Along the lines of what Paul said?

DIet wise, I am not big into changing much other than making sure you grab a protein shake immediately after the race and stay on tops of those for 3-4 days after. Breakfast. lunch, and dinner. You definitely don't want to starve the body after the first Ironman of anything.


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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
So in summary your saying: if you kill yourself in the first your screwed for the second! I am all in on Kona so no turning back, unless I am rocking it with a few miles to go then might back off but thats not likely to happen. My fitness is pretty much at all time high, now I don't have the years of endurance training you do but for me its really good. Anything you do diet wise that can help? Along the lines of what Paul said?

Do the math.....say you are at mile 18 in Kona....next 6 miles wind it down by even 20 seconds per mile. You lost 2 minutes. Legs are probably better at mile 24 so you can run smoother down Palani and then to the finish line. You're probably worst case 90 second slower at Kona, but maybe 10 min faster at Cabos to get a return trip to Kona off the same build. Run that final part of Kona 2-4 min faster and dig deeper. Think like Chris Froome doing the TdF and Vuelta back to back. That guy burnt the minimal amount of matches to get through the TdF with the win so he could launch into dealing with everyone attacking him at the Vuelta and win. Basically that's what you have to do....get through Kona fast enough for your personal victory, but then go to Cabos where everyone wants your lunch and is trying to take you down for the 2018 KQ slot. At Kona, you're already in the championship and a few minutes here or there make zero diff assuming you are not about to go 9 hours flat or faster and take a podium in your age group
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Could be Jonny ! But I did feel like I went real deep - as you know :)
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
BBLOEHR wrote:
So in summary your saying: if you kill yourself in the first your screwed for the second! I am all in on Kona so no turning back, unless I am rocking it with a few miles to go then might back off but thats not likely to happen. My fitness is pretty much at all time high, now I don't have the years of endurance training you do but for me its really good. Anything you do diet wise that can help? Along the lines of what Paul said?


Do the math.....say you are at mile 18 in Kona....next 6 miles wind it down by even 20 seconds per mile. You lost 2 minutes. Legs are probably better at mile 24 so you can run smoother down Palani and then to the finish line. You're probably worst case 90 second slower at Kona, but maybe 10 min faster at Cabos to get a return trip to Kona off the same build. Run that final part of Kona 2-4 min faster and dig deeper. Think like Chris Froome doing the TdF and Vuelta back to back. That guy burnt the minimal amount of matches to get through the TdF with the win so he could launch into dealing with everyone attacking him at the Vuelta and win. Basically that's what you have to do....get through Kona fast enough for your personal victory, but then go to Cabos where everyone wants your lunch and is trying to take you down for the 2018 KQ slot. At Kona, you're already in the championship and a few minutes here or there make zero diff assuming you are not about to go 9 hours flat or faster and take a podium in your age group



Yes you are 100% right when you look at it that way.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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I did 2 in 20 days very successfully this year. The difference between me and you is that I signed up for the 2nd about 10 days out after experiencing a stellar, rapid 're overly that surprised me. I had a great double. I still wouldn't sign up for 2 well in advance since my typical recovery takes 3-4 weeks.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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I did two IM in a 3 week interval and bounced back for my best IM of the year.

How you fare depends on many things. If you are a strong runner, have more than a few years in the sport, are used to racing frequently on short turn-arounds or accustomed to big back-to-back training days, are all factors that will all work in your favour.

That's all things you can't change now, but there are still things you can do.

It's all about effective recovery. Tick all the boxes after the first race; IV if available, timely and quality post-race nutrition and hydration, icing niggles, massage, stretching, easing back into your training as your body will allow.

Realistically, you're not going to build fitness between the races. Fine tuning the body to go hard again is the priority.

And probably don't do what I did. Run a 50 miler six days after the first IM. That sucked.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
Kentucky Mac wrote:
I had 2 IMs 6 weeks apart so not as aggressive as your schedule, but turned out I had a PR on the second one which still stands. The key for me was after the first one to keep moving. Easy swims, easy bikes, easy runs. And the occasional fast interval. Sounds like you have a good plan.


So really you did nothing hard, just kept it easy and went out and raced......Did you have pretty good build leading up to IM #1?
Mostly easy. Looking back at my log, I went super easy on the week after the first IM (every other day off, swim/bike only). Next couple of weeks I did all easy, but included some short tempo efforts during my runs. Week #4 I incorporated short intervals in my workouts. It also appears I bumped up the intensity in my bike/swims (so I apparently lied about ALL easy). Weeks #5&6 I started a taper, but threw in tempo efforts in most of the workouts. Mainly, I avoided the balls-out swims, track workouts, etc. Technically my build into the first race included nearly 10 years of marathon training/racing so I'm sure that helped a lot.
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Re: 2 IM in 4 weeks, STUPID! [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
I did 2 in 20 days very successfully this year. The difference between me and you is that I signed up for the 2nd about 10 days out after experiencing a stellar, rapid 're overly that surprised me. I had a great double. I still wouldn't sign up for 2 well in advance since my typical recovery takes 3-4 weeks.

That would have been ideal, but with flights and time off work had to make the decision sooner. Would rather have waited 2 weeks post Kona.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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