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2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss)
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On this thread below, guys gave me some really good advice on getting down the timing for my fly stroke


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...th%20stroke#p6425083

I have been doing some fly sets where I sprint 25 breathing once 3 strokes and keeping my head down, followed by the next 25 m ultra slow breathing every stroke or every second stroke, but really extending the glide phase and balancing on my chest and hardly doing any kick other than just flicking my ankles before breathing but otherwise keeping my feet pointed and plantar flexed. I've been doing this for 200m-500m depending on the day. The focus of the above was an ultra low amplitude fly....more trending towards free than breast undulation (you know the people at your pool who do fly going up and down in a huge way to the point that from underwater it almost looks like breast). I any case on the recovery leg, when you get the timing and pressing of the chest just right, the entire leg just comes to the surface riding the wave reducing drag.

Then the last week, I started doing the above but with 2 beat freestyle, but rather than think about the body roll, I just let the torso and hips do what they do in low amplitude fly but do it 180 degrees timing off from each other, breathing every 3 or 5 strokes. Basically each half was doing a one leg and one arm fly (left side doing fly recovery + reach, right side doing fly pull). After a while i really noticed a lot of difficulty doing this on my left side pull as this is the side where I had a disc rupture. It's not that I can't do it, properly, I was just protecting the spot so much that there is cheater stall and pull to get me through the point that "used to hurt" (it no longer does) and this was throwing everything off on one side when I sent to breath...basically I was breathing at the wrong point of the torso->hip->kick whip that you can't cheat yourself through in fly, but you can in free.

On a plus side, I am getting way more force out of my kick (duh, it's actually in sync with my body). It's more like the underwater part of a Janet Evans 2 beat stroke....probably really good for open water racing!

I think I am about to break through kicking some old 25 year old habits in free by getting my timing a bit more in sync between all body parts and breathing thanks to some of the timing and sync from fly. I will report back on this thread from time to time. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to video in the city of Ottawa pools, so I am stuck with a text description of what is going on. If I can get to a none city pool where I can use video, I will.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds really interesting, dev. I think all kinds of drills are useful to find different insights, but I never heard of one leg one arm fly. Maybe I'll play around with it.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]
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If you want a laugh, do some upside down fly.....

Told you you had a breathing problem with your free......
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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try fly with 6 beat flutter kick...

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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
If you want a laugh, do some upside down fly.....

Told you you had a breathing problem with your free......

You were bang on....I think my free is about to make a breakthrough. I have plenty of aerobic and strength....timing way off on half my body.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a cliff notes version? I'm guessing your free got better by doing fly. It's helped me as well.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Do you have a cliff notes version? I'm guessing your free got better by doing fly. It's helped me as well.

I guess the cliff notes version is that my free got better doing fly....but there are a few cavaets.

Watching the 2016 Olympics, when I was really getting into more heavy duty swimming due to not riding and running, I got inspired by all strokes, and more importantly my personal observation was that some athletes medaling at fly events (across genders) were medaling at free events, but not the other way around. In other words, I started thinking that it takes way more skill and conditioning to do fly well vs free well. So I decided to really focus on getting better at all strokes and particularly fly to see if all of that helps my multi decade freestyle technical rut.....and it has.

But on the other thread that I pointed to at the first post of this thread, a bunch of people made a number of suggestions on what I needed to do to get my timing right in fly and I have been working on that, but then transferring it back to free. This seems to be helping me break out of old and bad habits on free. I will keep working on that and see where it all lands.

Dev
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
Do you have a cliff notes version? I'm guessing your free got better by doing fly. It's helped me as well.

I guess the cliff notes version is that my free got better doing fly....but there are a few cavaets.

Watching the 2016 Olympics, when I was really getting into more heavy duty swimming due to not riding and running, I got inspired by all strokes, and more importantly my personal observation was that some athletes medaling at fly events (across genders) were medaling at free events, but not the other way around. In other words, I started thinking that it takes way more skill and conditioning to do fly well vs free well. So I decided to really focus on getting better at all strokes and particularly fly to see if all of that helps my multi decade freestyle technical rut.....and it has.

But on the other thread that I pointed to at the first post of this thread, a bunch of people made a number of suggestions on what I needed to do to get my timing right in fly and I have been working on that, but then transferring it back to free. This seems to be helping me break out of old and bad habits on free. I will keep working on that and see where it all lands.

Dev

Your olympic observation could partially be cause by Phelps who is the best fly swimmer and also the greatest swimmer.

But yeah fly helps a lot. (And hurts a lot).
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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It was actually seeing that Penny Oleksiuk from Canada was doing in the 100m fly with silver and the free at 16 years old and tying Simone Manuel in the 100 free...of course confirmed by some of the men. LeClos who a had mainly regarded as a fly guy almost nipped Sun Yang in the 200m free starting way too hard and then fading a bit....I kind of expected him to do better in the 200 fly as defending champ, but he screwed that one up....mainly it was him as 200 fly 2012 champion kind of surprising me in the free 200m and Penny with the silver + gold in the 100m fly + 100 m free. Phelps is Phelps!

We could also rewind back to Kristin Otto winning medals in the free and fly events in 1988....sure GDR legacy and questions about their extra booster "program" but you can't take away the technical aspect.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It was actually seeing that Penny Oleksiuk from Canada was doing in the 100m fly with silver and the free at 16 years old and tying Simone Manuel in the 100 free...of course confirmed by some of the men.

talking about 2016 olympics and butterfly. Sarah Sjöström seems to be doing some drills like the one you did but also trying to change her freestyle technic to something more similiar to how men swim sprint(freestyle). She´s really good already but gonna be interesting to see the effect of that.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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(Quote) "more importantly my personal observation was that some athletes medaling at fly events (across genders) were medaling at free events, but not the other way around." (Quote)

I don't see how "not the other way around" applies here. You could just as easily reverse it: some athletes who medal in free also medal in fly.

Furthermore, I think you're making an extreme exaggeration to say that Janet Evans' freestyle is comparable to any style of fly.

One final thought: swimming all four strokes gives you a better feel for the water and swimming fly in particular makes your free seem very easy. However, the timing in fly is, obviously, very diff from freestyle. The real overlap is that the pull in fly and free is essentially the same but doing both arms at same time and breathing as you do in fly make it more similar to breast than to free overall.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a logic question then (I don't know the answer)

1) If you medal in fly, you will medal in free

2) If you medal in free, you will medal in fly

I'll bet the percentage for 1) is much greater than 2)

Obviously part of that is there are more free than fly events.

EDIT:

Looking back - it looks like Phelps is the only one to medal in both since 2008 so....

But it does look like if you medal in fly, you have a good change to medal in the medley. (or if your name is Phelps, you have a good chance to medal in both)
Last edited by: B.McMaster: Oct 7, 17 11:23
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Here's a logic question then (I don't know the answer)

1) If you medal in fly, you will medal in free

2) If you medal in free, you will medal in fly

I'll bet the percentage for 1) is much greater than 2)

Obviously part of that is there are more free than fly events.

EDIT:

Looking back - it looks like Phelps is the only one to medal in both since 2008 so....

But it does look like if you medal in fly, you have a good change to medal in the medley. (or if your name is Phelps, you have a good chance to medal in both)

Ya, I think there is a big Phelpsian influence going back to 2004. If you think back to past Oly swimmers, three flyers come to mind who mostly medaled in fly and maybe on a free relay: the legendary Mary T Meagher; the 2nd fastest flyer in the 80s behind Mary T: Jenna Johnson (who just happens to coach at my local YMCA), and Melvin Stewart, who swam for my local U of Tenn team when he dominated the 200 fly from 1989-95. Prob others that I can't recall off top of my head. Going way back, Spitz won his 4 indy gold in 100/200 free and fly, and then in '88 Biondi won 50/100 free and was touched out in the 100 fly by Anthony Nesty ( I can remember watching that race on TV and being shocked. :))

In the long run, I don't think it makes any real sense to even debate this since it will always boil down to what any given swimmer can do with his/her physiology, flexibility, etc.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Danyon Loader bronze 200 fly 2xgold 200 and 400 free in following Olympics
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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+ Michael Klim. Just don't try to imitate his freestyle.
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Here's a logic question then (I don't know the answer)

1) If you medal in fly, you will medal in free

2) If you medal in free, you will medal in fly

I'll bet the percentage for 1) is much greater than 2)

Obviously part of that is there are more free than fly events.

EDIT:

Looking back - it looks like Phelps is the only one to medal in both since 2008 so....

But it does look like if you medal in fly, you have a good change to medal in the medley. (or if your name is Phelps, you have a good chance to medal in both)

Maybe another and better way for ME to look at this is, what is the instance for breast or back medalists also medaling in free events? Whereas fly to free there is a stronger correlation, so when I embarked on this multi stroke focus I went with more focus on fly for the crossover to free. Plus I enjoy doing fly the most. I won't say I hate breaststroke, but I don't really enjoy doing it hard since my timing is off.....to me doing breast stroke fast mentally feels like race walking.....almost "what's the point". Back stroke I only like doing when there are a max of 3 people in my lane. When there are 5 or 6 then it's no fun (I mainly swim at public lane swim).
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I agree
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
Danyon Loader bronze 200 fly 2xgold 200 and 400 free in following Olympics

Actually, looking at my old Swimming World magazines from the 1990s, Loader won a silver in the 200 fly behind Melvin Stewart in '92. He was also 8th in the 400 free in '92 but did not swim the 200 free. In '96, he did indeed win the 200 and 400 free; he also swam the 200 fly but placed only 19th in the prelims. Thus it would *appear* that as he improved his free his fly dropped off a little bit, though that might just have been the way things worked out, i.e. not any conscious decision. He was only 17 in '92 so prob not fully mature physically. In any case, he definitely was a fly/free swimmer, or a free/fly swimmer, however you want to put it.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I got silver and bronze mixed up. He first represented nz in 1500 free. He didn't focus on fly so much when he started dominating free
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
Yeah I got silver and bronze mixed up. He first represented nz in 1500 free. He didn't focus on fly so much when he started dominating free

Interesting...so he moved down in distance as he got older. Seems that happens sometimes to D swimmers. IIRC, one of the Oly swimmers from South Africa (SA) went all the way from the 1500 down to 100/200 free; he was part of the SA 4 x 100 relay that won the gold at the '00 Oly. Can't recall his name off the top of my head right now but he swam at Arizona or Arizona State back in late 90s/early 00s and he dated Amanda Beard for a year or two. Read this gossip in her book. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 Beat Freestyle = half body Fly (discuss) [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]
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Trexlera wrote:
Sounds really interesting, dev. I think all kinds of drills are useful to find different insights, but I never heard of one leg one arm fly. Maybe I'll play around with it.

Today I was working a bit more on this. Actually what I was doing was 50m fly + 50 m free continuous as 25m ultra slow almost no kick fly, followed by head down fly sprint, and then ultra slow 2 beat kick free trying to balance and glide and sychronize the breathing with the hard kick (vs the other two easier ones for 3 stroke breathing)....followed up with 25m free sprint and repeating this for 1000m. Basically trying to transfer some of the timing and feel between strokes. The key is the really slow long glide fly and the really slow two beat kick on free. The hard kick on the free has the same effect as the hard kick on the fly when your head comes up to breath just after (down drive of the leg sends upper body higher).
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