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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Sbradley11] [ In reply to ]
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Hehehehe. Never saw that definition of it.

Always used it as a facetious term to mean you don't have to be that intelligent to figure something out. Not far off the official Urban interpretation.

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Right, we don't know, but your argument is equally valid in support of either a doped or clean Froome. But you're right, we don't know, which is why I'm suggesting they ought to release Froome's power and weight data in some form. Sky being cagey about it doesn't help matters. The "He's never tested positive." defense...well...we've heard that before haven't we.

The numbers don't lie. It's not like everybody was getting a magical tailwind up all the climbs in the early 2000s. They were doping. We know this to be true. When someone puts down a performance on par with them, questions should be asked. Its very reasonable to ask for more data so that we have all those variables you mentioned.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [T_rex] [ In reply to ]
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To paraphrase he who must not be named, I feel sorry for all of us. Sorry we can't dream big and sorry we can't believe in miracles. Its kind of a sad commentary on the sport. But thats cycling. Woo.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is that if you demand certainty when it comes to doping suspicions, then we end up back to Lance - "I have never tested positive" - when all of the evidence and speculation told us the (opposite) truth.

That's why I don't get my panties in a twist about whether someone is doping or not. I just assume most of them are. If someone screws up and gets caught, then they pay the penalty. End of story.

All of Lance's immediate competitors were doping BTW... and what he did was awesome IMO. And I don't even like Lance...

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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Ahillock] [ In reply to ]
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I think for me, my skepticism is that until 2011 when Froome exploded onto the scene with #2 in Vuelta, he was basically a nobody with no major wins nor any impressive rides that made him shine as a future star.

He did have that nasty parasite thing to deal with...

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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Agree that there are too many unknowns to draw a conclusion but there's certainly grounds for suspicion when one guy has a great day and every other contender suffers. 2 minutes is a significant amount - last year's Tour was decided by 3 minutes, most of which was in TTs.

I disagree about Sky not providing power data. They talk about being transparent then fail to do so when the opportunity presents itself, which smacks of having something to hide. Does it really matter how many watts Cav is doing at the finish? Everyone knows what's going to happen and most of the time it still does, so knowing someone's w/kg isn't going to win the race. It's a tired, lame excuse for Brailsford to suggest otherwise. People WILL speculate either way so why not be open about it. Heck, even Astana does, and they certainly have a checkered past.

Brian Holm said it best this week that cycling has earned the doping suspicion. Is it fair for today's riders? Not necessarily for all of them, but that's how it is, and they should all accept it regardless of whether McQuaid wants everyone to move on.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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^ ^ ^ ^
This. Spot on.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Just to say that his time is an indicator of doping without looking at everything surrounding how and when the times were done is ridiculous.

late vs early in the tour, avg speed prior, time of the effort etc.

You are comparing apples to cereal....at best. Good luck with that.

I think Sky is missing an opportunity to set the record straight. But...

It's flawed logic and piss poor reasoning like this that makes me think maybe Sky is right in not releasing the data. You've demonstrated, quite well, people can't see the forest through the trees.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
The problem is that if you demand certainty when it comes to doping suspicions, then we end up back to Lance - "I have never tested positive" - when all of the evidence and speculation told us the (opposite) truth.

That's why I don't get my panties in a twist about whether someone is doping or not. I just assume most of them are. If someone screws up and gets caught, then they pay the penalty. End of story.

All of Lance's immediate competitors were doping BTW... and what he did was awesome IMO. And I don't even like Lance...
+1
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Daremo wrote:
So what's the point then ...... If Froome's time is better than LA's up the same stretch of road and we know for sure LA doped and his hematocrit levels were subsidized by PED's/transfusions by that point in his corresponding Tour, then it really raises the eyebrows and Froome's performance is suspect. Especially with the following day where he was attacked continuously by Movistar and didn't implode like his teammate. We'll never know. But it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to look at the general facts and question things.

But his time WASN'T faster than Armstrong's. It was slower. And Armstrong's time was set after they had already raced through the Alps on stage 14 , not the first mountain stage, stage 8.

Have you ever done a stage race?

Froome got attacked by Movistar exactly twice on that last climb and both of them were fairly weak in that the attacker gave up as soon as Froome got close and nobody countered. Everybody gets tired. Froome may have been ripe for picking, but maybe so was everybody else and they couldn't take advantage of it.

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Just to say that his time is an indicator of doping without looking at everything surrounding how and when the times were done is ridiculous.

late vs early in the tour, avg speed prior, time of the effort etc.

You are comparing apples to cereal....at best. Good luck with that.

I think Sky is missing an opportunity to set the record straight. But...

It's flawed logic and piss poor reasoning like this that makes me think maybe Sky is right in not releasing the data. You've demonstrated, quite well, people can't see the forest through the trees.

THIS! x100

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [nslckevin] [ In reply to ]
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Enough doping talk. Was Cav's move intentional? Did he just panic and want greipels wheel?

The evidence. http://twitpic.com/d1qi89
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was kinda bush league of the argo rider to sit up in 3rd wheel so kittel and gripel could open a gap.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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Looked like a clowndick move to lean into the guy!
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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MattAune wrote:
Enough doping talk. Was Cav's move intentional? Did he just panic and want greipels wheel?

The evidence. http://twitpic.com/d1qi89

Yes.

Surprised he wasn't sanctioned, but more surprised at how easily the Argo guy went down. Shoulders and such seem to be quite common in sprints. I'm glad the commisaires didn't chuck him out of the race though.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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Sagan and someone else were locked in a far more physical fight for wheels than Cav's shoulder bump. Sprinting is a sketchy affair, those guys have serious stones.
Last edited by: Carl Spackler: Jul 9, 13 9:59
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [recycle2390] [ In reply to ]
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recycle2390 wrote:
I thought it was kinda bush league of the argo rider to sit up in 3rd wheel so kittel and gripel could open a gap.

It was ugly all around.

- Cav put himself between two Argo riders
- Argo dude sits up and changes line, forces Cav to go around
- Cav gives him a shoulder and takes him out

Which were breaches of etiquette? Which are fair game? Don't ask me. This sport is weird.
Last edited by: matto: Jul 9, 13 10:06
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:

Did you also google the guy's history? If so you'd have found out that he came from a very untraditional cycling background and turned professional very late (aged 22), and also that from his teenage years onwards he suffered from a debilitating parasitic disease (Bilharzia) which was only properly diagnosed (and hence could only be properly managed/treated) in 2010. Prior to that point he apparently had some very impressive numbers in training (which is why Sky took him on - they love their numbers there) but was very inconsistent and struggled to replicate it in races. It was only when they properly diagnosed his illness and could treat it properly that he was able to train consistently and translate those numbers into race day performances.

Again it doesn't mean that he's clean (and of course there are obvious parallels to another cyclist who suffered a debilitating illness and then miraculously recovered to come back stronger and faster than before) but as an explanation for why he blossomed so late as a rider it should at least be discussed on it's merits and not completely ignored.

Same thing goes for those who are wondering where Peter Kennaugh has suddenly appeared from. They should try Google. He grew up on the hilly Isle of Man and has a background in BMX riding so it's not that surprising that he can descend fast. And he's an Olympic pursuit champion, so it's also not that surprising that he can lay down a really big effort for a few miles before blowing up and dropping off the pace.

Yes I have "googled" the guys history. Same excuses and reasons given for him as have been given for riders like Bjarne Riis, Lance Armstrong...etc. The list goes on. The same excuses are given. Nothing has changed.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [Bigringonly] [ In reply to ]
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to me it looks like Veelers sits up (after looking down), moves slightly to his right, Cav flicks his bike to the right and leans left and Veelers goes down as a result of the collision, there has been way more contact in other sprints, even in this one behind Cav.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [T_rex] [ In reply to ]
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T_rex wrote:
MattAune wrote:
Enough doping talk. Was Cav's move intentional? Did he just panic and want greipels wheel?

The evidence. http://twitpic.com/d1qi89


Yes.

Surprised he wasn't sanctioned, but more surprised at how easily the Argo guy went down. Shoulders and such seem to be quite common in sprints. I'm glad the commisaires didn't chuck him out of the race though.

funny, when viewed from above like this, where you can't see the violence of the pedal strokes, the shaking of the bike frame, or the fact that the sprinter's head is down, its BLATANTLY intentional. but it seemed only "adversarial" when i watched it live.

as fas as the guy going down, i bet he was checked out. his role was done, the sprint was going to be ahead of him, so he relaxed. and Cav whacked him as if they were at the point of the scrum.


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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [dsmallwood] [ In reply to ]
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It's racing, that's all. Surprising that it doesn't happen more often.
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [matto] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect Cav may be getting a few lwsssons in ettiqute on the next few stages. If that doesn't work.
Argo needs a few hockey goons to deal with this type of behaviour.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [dsmallwood] [ In reply to ]
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also known as 'racing bikes'
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Re: 2013 TdF thread (spoiler alert) [dsmallwood] [ In reply to ]
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dsmallwood wrote:
T_rex wrote:
MattAune wrote:
Enough doping talk. Was Cav's move intentional? Did he just panic and want greipels wheel?

The evidence. http://twitpic.com/d1qi89


Yes.

Surprised he wasn't sanctioned, but more surprised at how easily the Argo guy went down. Shoulders and such seem to be quite common in sprints. I'm glad the commisaires didn't chuck him out of the race though.


funny, when viewed from above like this, where you can't see the violence of the pedal strokes, the shaking of the bike frame, or the fact that the sprinter's head is down, its BLATANTLY intentional. but it seemed only "adversarial" when i watched it live.

as fas as the guy going down, i bet he was checked out. his role was done, the sprint was going to be ahead of him, so he relaxed. and Cav whacked him as if they were at the point of the scrum.

He would have been fine if he sat up and relaxed but he didn't. He moved off to his right while Cav was going around him. Not a lot different to how Ryder took out Kennaugh on the previous stage.
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