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2005 Ultegra 10 Speed.
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Intelligence sources strongly suggest Shimano Ultegra undergoes a massive redesign for '05 to include complete redesign of cranks and bottom bracket and inclusion of 10 speed rear end.

Confidence is high that this information is correct.

Shortages of 9 speed for '04 already reported by Bicycle Retailer and Industry News magazine.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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It's probably just 04 Dura Ace. I wouldn't be surprised to see an upgrade to carbon cranks with 05 Dura Ace in an attempt to keep up with Campy Chorus. Campy will still be a step ahead with their Record and the fact you can get 10 sp all the way down to Centaur.

Personally I don't see a lot of real world riding advantages of 10 sp over 9 sp. The closer ratios offered with compact cranks are proably more significant.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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what is the benefit of 10 speed Dura Ace, Tom?

kind of lost on why I should by it. I would only get the cassette, chain, shifters, derailleur as I use Rotor Cranks and Zipp aero brakes.

is it reliable and does it perform as well at 9sp?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Sources suggest there will "never" be a carbon Shimano crank. Reliable sources.

For more info on 10 speed please stay tuned. (Hint, in the last four days I've purchased $27,000 worth of components and only slept 6 hours).

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"Shortages of 9 speed for '04 already reported by Bicycle Retailer and Industry News magazine."

Are you implying that Shimano is phasing them out to wait for 2005 10 speed? I believe that is incorrect. My understanding is that the Ultegra and 105 shortages have everything to do with poor forecasting of the European road market on the part of Shimano.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [john] [ In reply to ]
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That information- Shimano's strategic motives, are absolutely off limits to everyone except guys like Gerard and other true "insiders". I usually get my info from second tier personalities such as product managers, etc.

It is hard to say what is going on. One thing I do smell in the wind, and this is not hype: Shortages. I went through living hell to get a record group. Vaporware is in the air. We have had no problem getting Duar-Ace groups, there must be over a dozen of them in the store now and at least six bikes with them already on. Bar end shifters for them are another story....

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen '04 Campy Veloce in 10 speed as well. I don't think there's any advantage to 10 speed over 9. In fact, I do very well in our area on my old 7 speed Cannondale. That bike stays on the trainer most of the time, but I do ride it outdoors occassionally. 9 speed is plenty, but when/if I get my Campy equipped bike, I'll get 10 speed. Not because I need it, but because it's what they make.

RP
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Robert Preston] [ In reply to ]
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Here I go again.....BWAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA (ghasp, cough, gag..) AAAAaaaaah...um...



Cerveloguy hit it right on the head. About Time ShimaNO catches up...and to think that they would take current DA and turn it into Ultegra...that would be a first for ShimaNO (great idea though - they could copy Campy in that repect).

And here we go again with "Why 10 over 9"....we go right back to "Why 8 over 7", "Why 7 over 6"...blah blah blah. What I think is really funny is that people with Shimano are going ga ga over this whole "Compact" crank thing to try and get less jumps with their gearing...I never had that problem with my 10 speed stuff. 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23 (53/42).





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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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9 speed v. 10 speed is a moot point to me. I don't care how many speeds the rear cassette accomodates. I can do well with a 7 speed where I live. I can also do just fine with 8, 9 or 10. I guess what I should say is that 10 speed isn't a selling point to me. I can take it or leave it. What I want is Campy quality, and I can get that with either 9 or 10 speed. I desperately want a Campy bike. My tri bike is Shimano, and I tried to get Campy on it. Couldn't, though. I will probably replace the Shimano with Campy sometime in the next two or three years. I intend to ride my tri frame for quite a while.

My road bike -- that's another story. If I upgrade my Cannondale, it will be with Campy. If I decide to buy a new bike, I will get Campy on it as well. If I could find a complete 9-speed Campy group at a good price, I would get it. I figure I could save some money over 10-speed. But it really doesn't matter to me. I want Campy, 9 or 10.

And if I was buying a new bike and wanted Dura Ace, I would try to get 9 speed over 10 to save money. I'm not swayed by the "sexiness" of 10 speed. I, however, swayed by the sexiness of Campagnolo, 9 or 10.

RP
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Robert Preston] [ In reply to ]
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Why couldnt you get Campy on a Tri bike? All you need to do is dump the Ero levers and get the bar ends. I LOVE the Campy bar ends as there is an adjustment screw right in your fingers that enables you to play with the shifting. Also, I suggest turning up the spring rate in the Rear Der. to compensate for the longer cables that are needed for a typical tri bike setup. For the people that will say that the Campy brakes are not good for tri as the caliper release is on the Ero lever, not the caliper...I have never ever had an issue with that being a problem at all.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Here I go again.....BWAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAA (ghasp, cough, gag..) AAAAaaaaah...um...



Cerveloguy hit it right on the head. About Time ShimaNO catches up...and to think that they would take current DA and turn it into Ultegra...that would be a first for ShimaNO (great idea though - they could copy Campy in that repect).

And here we go again with "Why 10 over 9"....we go right back to "Why 8 over 7", "Why 7 over 6"...blah blah blah. What I think is really funny is that people with Shimano are going ga ga over this whole "Compact" crank thing to try and get less jumps with their gearing...I never had that problem with my 10 speed stuff. 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23 (53/42). [reply]



Now back to reality, compact cranks are taking over in Europe on both Shimano and Campy bikes. The sales numbers are truly unbelievable.

Furthermore, it is ridiculous to think that Campy is vastly superior to Shimano. I like both, both make good product but if you look at plain independent tests, Shimano DuraAce has a lot going for it.

- 17% stiffer cranks than Record carbon
- harder cogs (more durable)
- lighter actuation on the shifter

Record has a lot going for it as well:

- harder chainrings (more durable, though less important than for the cogs)
- easier shift with the small lever (continuous vs. step by step shifting of Shimano)
- Lighter if you use the entire group (mostly thanks to the brake/shift levers which are 100g lighter)

That said, I think 10-speed is rather pointless from either manufacturer.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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According to the velonews study the new Dura Ace crank 30% stiffer (bb, chainrings and crank assemblies) than the Campy Record. The entire assembly weighs 20 grams less and costs 33.5% less . In the stiffness/weight comparison, the DA is 34.8% stiffer than the Campy carbon crank. And in the stiffness/weight/$ comparison (value) the DA is 57% better than the Campy crank.

What would Shimano have to do to keep up with campy? Make their cranks heavier, flexier and more expensive? Dont assume that carbon is always better, I am sure the engineers at Shimano looked at every option when designing the new crank and felt aluminum offered the best performance/value.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
- 17% stiffer cranks than Record carbon
- harder cogs (more durable)
- lighter actuation on the shifter


17% stiffer than WHAT? I dont get it...I just have never seen ANYONE complain about their cranks flexing. This is back to the argument that your SOCK is absorbing some of the force that you try to apply to the pedals. Maybe we can implant steel studs directly into your metatarsal for better force transfer into the pedal system? What about the stiffness of the pedal axel? I am SURE that Speedplay would loose this war. It seems to me that the marketing has not going to the levels of "Fixing the problem we just dont have". I am curious at what point we make another frame out of Berillium (remember that one? $25k for the frame! - it was stolen by the way). That bike was TOO stiff. Anyone who rode it would complain that it make a Cannondale feel like a Vitus and needed to put Charmin in their shorts over even the slightest rough surface.



Why is Campy better than Shimano? That is religion.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Why is Campy better than Shimano? That is religion.
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And everyone in the world believes in ONE religion, don't they. . .oh. . .wait. . .no they don't. My guess is that Shintoism or Budhism just pass right over your head. I gotta hand it to ya Record, you are nothing if not predictable.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Still, no one can tell me who was complaining about this "flexxy crank". I still cant find the problem with the 9 speed Dura Ace crank (let alone the Record Crank).

I think that the community is SO biased towards ShimaNO that any precieved benifit is taken to a much higher level than it would be the other way. Fact is, most people who ride are on ShimaNO and dont want to feel inferior and thus feel the need to justify their components. If ShimaNO was the fist to have 10 speeds there would have been a giant Campy blast fest untill Campy made a 10. Rather, Capy was first and ShimaNO starts with "why" and then needs to justify themselves with a "Stiffer Crank"? So I digress...who was the one complaining about their crank not being stiff enough?

That is the only UPGRADE I see. Gerard had a very valid point about the shifting being "lighter". For those who prefer that, great. That is a thing of prefrence...claiming that someones crank is not "Stiff enough" I think is a strech.



And yes...with Campy I am QUITE predictable...what would you all do if I didnt defend my Campy? the day I stop, please - call 911 cause I have given up on life all together.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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The bike I purchased came with a Shimano only package. I tried to get the company to switch out the 105 for Centaur, but they wouldn't. Said if I wanted Campy, I needed to move up to the next level bike. They didn't offer any flexibility in the entry level package, but did at the other price points. I didn't mind too much, as the bike is incredible all the way around, and is 105 through and through (no Tiagra or house brand down specs). I've never had a problem with 105. I think it's a fine group. But given the choice, I'd rather have Campagnolo. So I'm going to ride it like it is for a few years and then go Campy. I'm kind of toying with the idea of buying a new road bike. If I do that, I'll get Campy. To be honest, Shimano 105 is fine with me for the level at which I ride. But like you said in another post, bikes with soul rock. I think Campy adds a some soul to any bike. And that's what I want -- a bike with soul.

RP
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][reply]
- 17% stiffer cranks than Record carbon
- harder cogs (more durable)
- lighter actuation on the shifter

[/reply]


17% stiffer than WHAT? I dont get it...I just have never seen ANYONE complain about their cranks flexing. [/reply]

That's because you don't sponsor a pro team. As to 17% vs. 30%, it depends on the test of course, I am referring to the Tour test. And RecordTi, if you don't like stiffer cranks, do you like more durable cogs? I do, but I also like the shifting action on the Campy lever, so I need to get this half Campy half Shimano thing going.

Gerard.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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"It's probably just 04 Dura Ace."
Not exactly, you won't see all the detailed machining and the hollowed pins, bolts, etc that Dura Ace has. No ti cogs, etc. STI function, crank/BB interface are similar.

"I wouldn't be surprised to see an upgrade to carbon cranks with 05 Dura Ace in an attempt to keep up with Campy Chorus."
Shimano won't go to carbon cranks. They have no plans to and feel that aluminum, particularly their 7XXX cold forged hollow cranks are far superior. It is hard to argue that. Given that the interface for the chainrings, BB, and pedals almost certainly have to be made of metal, making the rest is more congruant in their mind. Hard to find another crank/BB system as stiff and light and COST effective as D-ace <700 gram unit.

"Campy will still be a step ahead with their Record and the fact you can get 10 sp all the way down to Centaur."
Campagnolo makes 10 speed all the way down to Veloce, allowing a "Tiagra" price point for 10 speed users. Centuar, Chorus and Record of course get improvements in weight, performance and sometimes durability.

"Personally I don't see a lot of real world riding advantages of 10 sp over 9 sp.
The closer ratios offered with compact cranks are proably more significant."

If you find that the compact cranks offer advantages, why not acknowledge that the 10 speed offers the SAME if not more with the ability to offer the same closely spaced gears to those of us that ride 650c wheels or can acutally use a 53x11 on a 700c bike. Many riders have selected cogsets with tight spacing in the range where they ride the most. Probably the most famous is Lance Armstrong's use of a 20,21,22,23 tooth range of cassettes on an uphill TT a few TdF's ago.

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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Timetrial.org: What are Zipp aero brakes? I know they make brake blocks but their site says nothing about calipers. I have been looking for aero brakes since I saw that thread about an unidentified set of very aero calipers on DeBooms bike at IMH. DA brakes are unnecessary stopping power on a TT bike and way too bulky.
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [TimeTrial.org] [ In reply to ]
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Very funky. Thanks for the link. You'd think with the amount of time people spend freaking about aero this and aero that that we would have a range of specialized aero brakes to choose from. Looks like Zipp doesn't even make these any more. Hmmm, after reading the career-change thread makes me think about "2005 Savage Aero Brakes" (TM). Want in on this Gerard?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard...I dont think that I would have the ability to even notice my cranks were stiffer - thus my point. I am not a machine that can exert tons of force on a crank over and over again. As for the cogs...I dont know that I have worn out any Record cogs - I have worn out the Ti Record cogs though.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I can see this might be one of those 'highly inflammatory topics', but it is time to wade into the "Campy-Shimano cat fight".

Campagnolo and his company were true innovators. Others here may know their history far better than me, but over the years Campy was either the sole innovator or great refiner of many major bike components like the rear derailleur, the shifting system, the quick release, and others. They made bike components into true polished works of art, supported what they did make with great spare parts, and slowly evolved and improved their designs. During this time, Shimano was a bit of a crackpot company that did their best to blatantly copy Campy designs, sometimes made interesting but questionable improvements, radically changing their designs almost every friggin' year, and GOOD LUCK if a rider wanted a spare part for last year's component.

But then the tables slowly turned. It seemed that the MTB explosion started a shift with Shimano that made them radically innovate in both the mountain and road arenas. Those of us that trained and raced many triathlons on Campy Super Record parts (that would be the first Super Record) with downtube friction shifters and shifted on Regina freewheels know perhaps better than anyone that Shimano has vastly improved the state of the sport. They stuck their necks out in a major way and were undeniablly FIRST to bring to market many successful and usable innovations. For example:

-Going to 7 cogs and then going to 8 cogs--a big impovement from the 5 pitiful cogs typical on Italian freewheels (admittedly Suntour was the first with 6 and later Campy widened their rear hubs to accommodate standard-spaced 6-speed freewheels)

-Developing the cassette hub/gearing system--I have bent many an axle on my 5- and 6-speed Campy hubs since in the old design the driveside bearing put incredible loads on the middle of the axle. And now changing cassettes is a breeze.

-Coming up with 'indexed' shifting for high end bikes--the ability to shift with one click or a few clicks instead of searching around on a friction system was a big leap forward.

-'Hyperglide' shifting--to me this is probably the most amazing thing they did: because of the ramps on their rear cassettes and the shaping of the cog teeth, riders could now shift to an easier gear, while climbing a hill, WHILE still PUSHING on the pedals and applying a load. When I first experienced this, I was stunned. For me, climbing was forever changed. Having this ability was fantastic.

-Refining the double-sprung derailleur--Campy Record and SR derailleurs had a spring only on the jockey wheel assembly, none on the derailleur pivot, and had a very simple and primitive design. Shimano used computer aided design to optimize the double sprung system with a spring on the derailleur pivot as well. A huge improvement in chain tension and shifting smoothness.

-Ramped and pinned front chainrings--a similiar 'hyperglide' innovation for the chainrings that improved front shifting vastly (although not to the degree that hyperglide did for the rear).

-And then the crowning achievement, STI dual control levers--their 2nd amazing design. A huge improvement over fumbling continuously with downtube levers. Now you could shift WITH BOTH HANDS ON THE BARS while on the drops, while on the hoods, while standing, and while braking. All were impossible to do before (with complete 2-handed control of the bike). Bike racers said the very tactics of road racing changed.

This list does not even include Shimano's innovations in the MTB arena, where Campy trailed terribly and then beat a hasty retreat. The fact is that Shimano was THE FIRST in ALL of these areas, and now Campy has become the copycat. Campy components now have every single feature listed above because now it is Campy that has become the follower. Campy has admittedly made some decent refinements--using carbon fiber and exotic alloys, etc. BUT Shimano innovated, designed, and took the risk in ALL of these areas. That cannot be denied. And Shimano's recent improvements (except this endless chase of packing more and more cogs onto a very small rear axle) are pretty stunning as well.

I loved Campy components because they were truly 'the best'. But now I respect the vast no. of really good designs that have come out of Shimano's shop. Clearly, they are a corporation that makes a lot of money (on us), but they became the market leader (in my opinion) in a pretty admirable way. Ingenuity has value. And being the first has value.





Where would you want to swim ?
Last edited by: Greg/ORD: Dec 12, 03 12:01
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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aero brakes that once were made, but can only be found on Ebay, etc:

Modolo Kronos

Zipp

Hooker

Dura Ace AX

Campy Delta
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Re: 2005 Ultegra 10 Speed. [Robert Preston] [ In reply to ]
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"I think Campy adds a some soul to any bike."

No, you add soul to a bike. I understand aren't being %100 for real saying that but that is my one pet peeve about us bike dorks. Parts, parts, parts. Groups are fun and sexy but htis devotion to parts makes me crazy. If you need parts to aadd sould it says to me you have a bigger problem inside then any part will fix.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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