I think that the "break" during a flip turn is a pretty advanced concept. The only swimmer I ever heard call a flip turn a rest was a Oly gold medalist.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

Another No... this is just over-thinking it to seem clever. Best strategy to swim better is to emulate 'real' swimmers in training, which includes flip turns.

I do not see a reason to do this drill.

1. The idea behind this drill though is the push-off provides quite a bit of momentum and actually knocks the number of stroke down per length. When you flip at the T, your feet are basically just missing the wall - so you are "swimming" more of the length than if you get a good push. And, maybe that's more like OWS, but not really.

2. Now, if you don't flip turn, or do aggressive open turns, then it is possible one could be sneaking in an extra breath and clutching the wall a little longer. I would say, do flip turns or an under water open turn to combat this. Either of those is probably a better solution to the T-turn if the goal is to eliminate the extra breath.

No reason to do that drill or flip turns!! if you are going somewhere with the masters swimming ( like racing in a pool,) then do flip turns and get them right. really getting you flip turn perfected again is going to help you how??? in OW??

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I have no idea how to do a flip turn. And I have no intention of learning either unless I get so fast at triathlon I'm bored and looking for something new.

Work on silly things, like sighting drills, bilateral breathing in all sorts of different patterns, and drafting! Work on things that will help you in the open water.

Work on doing your whole swim without ever taking off your goggles too.

My last tri was so nice when I spent 100m drafting another competitor that just had to pass me. I ended up passing him back but being sucked along in his wake for a while sure was a nice break.

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You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

I personally do not think bilateral breathing helps, if you know how to seal your mouth with your tongue and still breath. I do agree with sighting definetly a big one, plus learning how to swim a line in OW is another. No pool practice can help that. At least for me.
I have never had a problem with proper fitting goggles. Equipment issues you need to get right before the race. Trust your equipment and your race will be much smoother. I bring 3 pairs of goggles to races. Heck they are small enough not like I am bringing a habachi grill with me.

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Agreed bilateral breathing is over rated. But I do think it is VERY helpful to know how to breath left and right side. For OWS it's particularly important if there is a wake, sun in your eyes or if you are trying to draft and need eyes on someones hip.

One of the goggles is always a tinted pair. i always seem to suck in water when I try to bilateral breath to the right side, hardly ever when I just go left side. In all honesty I do not practice the right side breathing. Just seems very unnatural for me also.

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Your coach knows a bit about triathlon swimming so the drill must be somewhat ok!!

I've been to that practice - really good stuff and fantastic facility. Keep up the good work.

we do that drill fairly often in our masters team workouts. To be honest, I can't say what it's for since I never asked, but it's certainly not for simulating OW swimming/triathlon, since I'm more or less the only triathlete in there. I had though it was something to do with getting your kick rate up at the breakout and practicing a fast breakout. Whatever it is, we have some great coaches who really know what they're talking about, and some swimmers with the performance to show for it, so I assume it's working (I am ready to be corrected shortly).

Funny this I used to lifeguard and then further down the track coached at a pool. I would see a lot of triathletes stop 2 metres short of the wall, stand up, turn, walk a little, then keep swimming..... Or coming in to the end of a repeat stop 2 metres from the wall and walk the rest...

It was nothing to do with tri specific training - it was just sheer laziness. It was pathetic. None of the swimmers did it. I didn't allow it in my squads. You touch the wall everytime or get out...

I even kicked a fellow staff member out one day for not following directions.

Quote:

You touch the wall everytime or get out...

This is how I was brought up in swimming. You swam all the way to the wall every time, otherwise you will teach yourself to slow down at the end of each set, and during the meet you give the race away to the other guy.

I think the difference here is that you are intentionally skipping the flip turn, not intentionally stopping short

These are the reasons I wish I was a better bi-lateral breather. But, in a race I pretty much always go one side.
Another reason would be to better keep an eye on the mid-turn buoys. Seems like every race last year was counter-clockwise, so the buoys were on the left while I was breathing to the right.

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The tough thing about analyzing a drill workout in a Masters program is that it is very generic. Swim drills are usually written as "drill" and not as "insert specific drill here" for a reason......what is good for one may not be good for another.

I'd ask Sara about this drill since it is specifically written for "triathlete" and "OW" swimmers. Let us know what the answer is:-)

I, on the otherhand, will try this drill at my next practice ....... I need something to help make my feet move water!!

Not why you posted, but good on you to drop the cigarettes and get yourself back into shape. best of luck.

. I need something to help make my feet move water!![/reply]

Kicking alway's worked for me ;o)

More seriuosly funny thing is in a loner race 1500 meters or more to hard of a kick is going to ire you out and not give you to much of a benefit anyway. but kick to hard and you will feel the effects midway and during the rest of the race. with proper form and stroke you should not need that hard of a kick You need to pace like a 5k.First 50 -100 and the last 50-100 meters in the bigger race is when to kick harder. First to get to the clean undisturbed water and last to shake the legs out a bit to ready them for the bike. Just my unsolicited opinion.

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I was never a fan of breathing on the left side. I was a right side only for a long time and still do most of my swimming that way.

I found once I started swimming 30-50K a week and doing races of 10K and longer it was a lot of strain on my left shoulder. I find the balance a little better for the real endurance swims. Lets hope it works for my 25K this year!

When I read this yesterday I thought that it was the stupidest thing to do in a pool, even for a drill, then I thought about it for a while.

Comming to a complete stop, turning around and swimming the other way still makes no sense to me and it does not simulate open water swimming. I never come to a complete stop in open water.

I also dissagree with this:

"No matter how fast your turn is, every time you push off the wall, you get a little break from swimming."

I take my last stroke into the wall, flip and take 2-3 dolphin kicks off the wall, the last one while starting my first stroke. I don't see where there is a little break in there anywhere.

jaretj

I also like the exact opposite drill. It's called the "Tennessee Turn." When you hit the flags you go underwater take 2 strong dolphin kicks, flip turn and then dolphin kick until you are past the flags again.

Once you've got those down, flip turns are trivial.

Not sure how coming to a complete stop and turning around isn't "getting a little break" your rhythm is shot, you're no longer in a good streamline position, and it will take you 2-4 strokes to get back in a stream line position.

I would say this is awful advice. Novel idea, but just swim like swimmers. There is nothing magical about open water swimming that would warrant doing crazy shit in the pool.

Never heard of this drill until you posted this. I was the typical lazy triath-a-lete who always did open turns at the pool (and got pretty proficient at them). Never thought I needed to do flip turns. Ffwd a few years later, joining a masters swimming group (not a tri club swimming group) and was basically told "you're gonna learn to do flip turns or you're not going to go very far here..." So I just sucked it up and started doing them. Ditto bilateral breathing. Didn't think it was necessary then, but after doing it for a number of years now, I shake my head at people who just don't do it for either stubbornness or laziness (yes, that was me too, years ago).

Doing a flip turn will force you to swim in a slightly hypoxic state. You get a lot less rest than you would by doing an open turn. You need to engage your core to do it properly, and you need to learn to hold your breath (gulp, flip, push, break past the flags, *then* breathe). You want to get more economical in your need for oxygen while swimming? Do flip turns. Do hypoxic sets once in a while. Will open your eyes.

As for bilateral breathing, not only does it force you to maintain proper form when breathing to each side (do you lift your head when breathing right but are pretty perfect when breathing left?), and trains you to swim with a SYMMETRIC stroke, I can't tell you how many times being able to efficiently breath from either side has saved my bacon in races (usually due to conditions/crowding). When racing I'll often breathe one-side, or 3-2-3, but in training, it's ALWAYS bilateral (3, 5 or 7). People can keep on telling themselves that "I don't race like that so why train like that" and that's fine, they can keep on kidding themselves/justifying their laziness to themselves.

My 2 (grumpy pants) cents.

AP

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So I have a lot of follow on thoughts. Screw the practicality of quoting each post before answering.

I did this drill in my swim yesterday and actually found it pretty hard. I'm a flip turner so I just flipped one stroke short of normal so that my toes barely touched the wall - this helped me stabilize my body and complete the twist without allowing me to push off. Because I wasn't able to carry momentum off the wall it forced me to accelerate from a stop completely under the power of my stroke/kick.

Will it help with a no turn open swim? The consensus here is probably not. Will it help with my ability to swim harder/faster/longer/better? Time will tell, but something tells me it certainly won't make me swim any slower from doing it.

1. Drills are drills. They force you to do something you wouldn't EVER do during a competitive event. ie finger dragging, catch-up, etc. They are to force you into breaking up your routine and re examine your fundamentals.

2. I live in Portland, Oregon - unfortunately nowhere near the NTC so asking for clarification isn't going to work

3. Bi-Lateral Breathing is a must have skill for a swimmer, simply for swimming's sake. I practice my bilateral by always breathing to a particular side of the pool so that even laps I breathe to the right and odd laps I breathe to the left. As I do more hypoxic work my lung capacity increased and now I generally do 3 stroke breathing when I am @ RPE 2 - 3.

4. I like the thought of teaching myself to breathe independently of my stroke! [Edit: It's also how I play Didjerido]

5. Your arms and upper body do get a rest every time you turn. Add up all your turns in a 500 meter swim and subtract your flag distance from each one - this is how far you swam without using your arms. Your lungs worked harder, your RPE will go up, but your arms/shoulders certainly do get a rest.

6. Open turns? Really? How annoying to have to do that for 60+ minutes of a 3500 meter workout. Learn to do flip turns. I haven't been in the Tri community long, but one thing I've noticed is that most triathletes are remarkably vain, and open turns (no matter how "proficient") look remarkably amateurish.