yeah, i just checked my numbers and they don't even fit on the chart.

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check out my blog http://theswimmingtriathlete.com

I 100% agree and intend to do this. I just gotta get my bikes level so I can take the measurements. I wish I could find where I wrote this stuff down for my prior bike. Did I throw that away??

ps, I guess the "pad" contact point for a road bike is the brake hood?

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

X2

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Agreed!

We definitely need more Hobbits to join us in the Shire. Please be sure to enter your pad coordinates. BTW Gee, I dropped my bar as far as it would go (Had to take the headset cover off). Haven't had a chance to test ride it on the trainer yet. My first impression was that it was much more comfortable. That really surprised me. I'm going to give it a try today.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

cyclenutnz David found me two friends! They are also angled-stem, Cobb 145ers. I guess that is the solution de rigueur for girls five feet tall. Tri3, if I remember correctly, you're on a Kuota and that has a tall head tube and so harder to get the Y down, although also if I remember correctly SallyShortyPants has one too and is fit well on it.

So, using a downward angled stem? Is that correct? What degree?

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Tri3 wrote:

So, using a downward angled stem? Is that correct? What degree?

I think I have a -25degree Profile Design Aris, 70mm because my frame x is also too long. Dan gave it to me -- this one I think.
http://www.bikeman.com/SM6307.html

ETA: ok, so I went back to the original and found your entered coordinates, which are actually backward in the way you entered them (x is reach, akin to the x axis on a graph), but correct on the chart. You and I report the same X but I am a full 6 cm lower than you in terms of Y -- a combination of my angled stem, my shorter cranks, and your frame with the taller head tube. I <3 my fit and am thankful every time I get on it that I am a ST womens and live near Xantusia. :)

Turns out I reported my stack incorrectly. It was 597, not 551. Reach was correct at 406.

Followed Gee's strategy of lower is more comfortable, and completely changed my coordinates and position.

My new coordinates are stack of 533 and reach of 457. (I might be able to get lower with -25 rise, but did what I could with stems I had on hand.) Rode 90 minutes yesterday and 75 minutes today on the trainer in the new position, and it felt pretty good.

Gee, what kind of drop do you have and which saddle are you riding? I had to swap out the Sitero for ISM Prologue. Saddle discomfort may limit my ability to get lower in front.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

My fitter card says 11cm drop, which is pretty hard to achieve when you are our size! I am currently on a Selle Superflow Max saddle, which I don't think they are making any more. I don't like the noseless ones, or at least I didn't like them when they first came out. When I need a new one, I will try some of the newer models. ISM is a team sponsor, and there are a few others that at least look interesting.

I would, too. I posted my x/y on the main forum page but will repost it here so we have all Womens in one spot.Here's what I posted on the main page. Cyclenutz told me that if I wan 650 wheels, I could achieve the same fit that I have no on my size 48 P3C with a size 45 P2 or P3.

Reach is 450 mm to center of aerobar pad. Stack is 570mm. Distance between center of pads is 250mm. If there is a carbon tri bike on the market right now, which can accommodate that fit on 650 wheels, I will buy it.

I am 5'4" and 120 lbs with a 30" inseam. Right now I am on a 2007 P3C size 48 in what I would call a reasonably aggressive position for a long course triathlete (a little slack for a short course racer). I've had this position since I got the bike and adore it. Been racing for 15 years. Was previously on a Serotta that put me in a less aggressive, more stretched out position and hated it.

I guess I'll also re-post here since my post went unanswered on the main thread:

Tri: 410, 591. Feels pretty comfy, been here since Dec. Ponder trying lower but am afraid of re-entering an endless cycle of saddle issues. 
Road: 559, 629. Feels a tad stretched out, particularly right after riding the tri bike. 

I've been told by my first fitter (for a bike I no longer have) I have long femurs for my height. 5' 3-4", 125 lbs, female, not a beginner.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Eileen, if you're thinking of going with the NP2 or 3, be sure to test one first. I say that because the reach figures on it are a bit misleading. Although it is shorter than most from BB to pad, the seat post is set back further behind the BB than other 650c bikes out there.

I bought a NP3 frameset sight unseen based on the published geometry. I was looking for something with a shorter reach than my current bike. The saddle to pad distance is nearly the same, even though on paper the NP3 reach is 2 cm shorter.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Okay, I am curious -- who is actually working with a fitter, and who is going it alone based on what we read? Is it cost, the way we are treated, lack of interest in the techie stuff, or something else that keeps so many womens from good fitters?

I am wondering partly because some of you seem very high Y compared to me, and because Tri3 also wants a shorter reach. David's graph shows 3 of us with sub-400 Pad X, and his girls are on the Cervelo (he posted a pic of it too at my request). Seems like a wise investment to work with someone experienced in various types of bar/frame/crank combinations, if you have access. I know that every time he sees me Slowman tells me my reach is too long, but he couldn't find his low-stack bars to try last time I was there (not that I have a great desire to invest in that, though, as a decidedly MOP racer ... so maybe that's the reason...).

I worked with three fitters in my first three years of tri. At this point I've paid well over $1K for bike fits. Cost, travel distance and finding someone that really understands us short womens are all barriers.
1) fitter #1--guy at the LBS where I bought my bike when I started tri. I had no bike experience at that point. In retrospect, it was a joke. Ended up going to #2 a few months later.
2) fitter #2--well respected PT with endurance background and associated with a sport center. Also provided gait analysis. Went to him first year of tri for hot foot and crotch issues. Returned a year later for an update, as endurance, strength and fitness had substantially changed. He was good, and left for for greener pastures.
3) fitter #3--third year of tri. Had a solid base and wanted to go fast. Traveled to see a FIST certified fitter. Waste of time, money and subsequent to the fit experienced the first of a cascading series of injuries. Should of known I was in trouble when the fitter stuck me on a bike without getting any history or doing a basic assessment of flexibility. When I reported extreme crotch discomfort as an issue to address--response was basically "any bike hurts after four hours."

Since #3, injuries have kept me to minimal training. Just to get back on the bike, PT and then sport doc made some adjustments, putting me in a fairly upright position. Besides the challenge of being short with alligator arms, I also now have several chronic injuries to work around. If I can't get comfy I'll go back to a fitter if I can find one I feel comfortable with. I wanted to schedule something with the ST road show, but it seemed as though appointments were filled prior to public announcement being made.

Also, update on the coordinate changes I made. I've had to raise the bars back up. Lower jacked up hip/hamstring. Kept the longer reach though, as that combined with a longer saddle, gets me more forward of the BB, which feels better all the way around.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

By NP2 and NP3, do you mean New P2 and New P3? I really appreciate the insight; just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

yes, that is correct

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

That totally sucks, and I am so sorry about both the bad experiences and the injuries. If you ever come to California (womens camp maybe?), we can hook you up with Slowman or with his main man Ian. At the very least, it is good for them to hear (again) that many fitters simply do not know how to address people outside their "main" zone -- and because they are really the two main FIST fit instructors in the US right now and do a great job with us little girls, more instructors will get better, we hope, although that's not much consolation for you right now.

In any case, I am glad to hear you are trying stuff and finding more comfort. IME, the only way to get low was to use short cranks; otherwise I also had hamstring issues. It is all just so costly!

Thank you so much for that offer. I've always wanted to make it out to the camp. Unfortunately, the back injury limits my travel.

That's interesting about the cranks and hamstring issues. I'm on 160mm now, and have gotten a pair of 150mm to build up the NP3.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

I've worked with 3 fitters on 4 different bikes. Most recent was with my tri coach who, when a number of us were complaining of saddle issues and trying several saddles has said, "it's not a fucking couch". I think men are simply squirrely attempting to address women's crotch discomfort. I think most shops only have a limited selection of saddles. So sure, I could buy what ever I wanted and start my own collection of wasted expenses.

Like another poster, I've also been through circles of discomfort and issues stemming from it. To relieve crotch discomfort I went to an ISM Typhoon. Initially a fantastic answer for me. But after years, it's just too wide. I don't care what the manufacturer says, it's too wide. I ended up with trigger point discomfort in spots from it, and also had hamstring insertion irritation but won't try to claim that was the saddle's fault. In all, both the Giant (road bike) I started on and the Cervelo I ended up with were long for me, so maybe the ISM never had a chance to fit correctly. Also used/tried but didn't like: Koobi for a couple of seasons, Selle SMP (is on my road bike, was miserable on the Cervelo), Cobb V-Flo (too wide!), Specialized Sitero (instant hate), Specialized Power Expert (what I closed out last season on, then I sold the Cervelo).

Currently on a Slice and Power Expert saddle. The saddle is a nice width (size narrow) if I sit at the front of it, but then it bugs my pubic bone. Pushed back more on the wider part, pubic discomfort eases, but then it's bugging me b/e it's too wide between my legs. I can ease the pubic pressure by trying to bend a lot in my very lower back to aim my sit bones down, but that isn't comfortable. Is that really what short torso'd people are supposed to do? Ride hunched so their genitals aren't smashed? Anyway, the shorter x of the Slice is better for me than the Cervelo was. I'd like to just put up with the saddle b/c I'm frankly tired of exploring this. But if there were a utopia, I'd be on a more comfortable saddle. I've been biking for years, 6 full distance triathlons; it makes me sad to start squirming at t=2 h.

ps - yes, I've done my own fit tinkering over the years, but stopped short of buying new stems on my own, haven't run out to buy new crank lengths (almost don't want the answer since I spent the dinero on a stages PM).

Sorry that turned out to be more about saddles than bike fit. I was going to try a new guy to fit the Cervelo but then pulled the trigger on a new bike instead.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

No-no-no, don't do that. You could injure your back by repetitively doing that.

Saddles are a BIG part of the fit, so your post is right on topic.

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

YIKES.

Well at least I'm not alone. It's been 2 years and 2 fitters and I'm mostly comfortable - except the damn saddle. I'm currently riding a dash and it's been the one I can tolerate the most.

I have a call into fitter #3 but he's been really busy ('tis the season) so I may not make any changes before IMMT in August.

I've posted in the x/y thread too and have even had some nice people message me with suggestions.

I think I'd pay to go to California if Dan was available and confident he could fix it. I guess my last option is surgery :D

I don't often come on here but when it comes to fit I am more the size of an average woman anyway. You mentioned the Power Saddle. Check the thread on the main forum I started on that saddle. I found you need that saddle angled down around 3 degree. I don't know why as I have the Power on one TT bike and the Specialized Sitero on the other TT bike which i ride level or even slightly nose up. for the record, my two TT bikes are Cervelo NP3 (39 cm reach) and Old Cannondale Slice with 37.5 cm reach). My torso is really short. Between the two bikes, I have the pads ~ 2cm futher back on the NP3 vs the Slice as my Bontrager Ski bend aerobar extensions that I have on both bikes allows for almost 4 cm of fore-aft pad placement, so I can get around quite a range of "reach" options by moving pads and telescoping extensions on top of playing with stem length too.

On the ISM I think the design is basically stupid because the width of the prongs either fit your body width or they don't. With the Specialized Power you have a graduated contact area that you can sit on for your personal "width". Same deal on the Sitero (actually more so on the Sitero).

For the record my stack is 59.5cm and my reach is 45cm. 5'6" with almost no torso and long legs and long arms. My saddle to pad drop is 7.5 cm.

One more thing for all you women with saddle discomfort. For my athletes who I have coached they invariably come back to me with bike fits with saddles "way high". I have immediately slammed down their saddles by 1 cm and magically 98% of the crotch discomfort evaporates. I put them on a comptrainer and they ride "blind" and say "my legs are burning". I reply "do you have crotch discomfort". They answer "no". Then I say, "well you are doing doing X watts" (pick the number). Most reply with "well what does this mean? I reply, "you are riding harder than you can sustain in an Olympic tri, which is why your legs are burning".

Often when people ride without a power meter they end up with higher saddle positions because they feel less painful. The reason is because they are generating less watts. It's like changing your swim stroke and then it feeling relaxed and then looking at the pace clock and you're swimming 4 seconds slower per 100m. Going faster generally means "more work" (thus more burning muscles)....it's OK. It's not OK to have crotch/saddle discomfort.

Watch the riders in the Tour de France and their "low saddle positions" vs your local roadies and triathletes. There is a good reason for that....4-6 hours per day in the saddle and you can't afford saddle discomfort from being even marginally too high.