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Terence Crutcher
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http://www.cnn.com/...-shooting/index.html

I've been following this for a couple days. Seems to me like the cop really fucked up.
Apparently her boss also finds the shooting disturbing.




who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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Not responding to the incident but to the CNN report linked. Here, first sentence, what other incident does this sound exactly like?


On August 16, Oklahoma twins Terence and Tiffany Crutcher celebrated their 40th birthday. Terence, a God-loving father who sang at church every week, had enrolled at a community college in Tulsa where he hoped to earn a degree.


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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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"Fucked up" is the most merciful way it could be put for her. She flat out murdered him. It's infuriating. She must be charged.



veganerd wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/index.html

I've been following this for a couple days. Seems to me like the cop really fucked up.
Apparently her boss also finds the shooting disturbing.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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MidwestRoadie wrote:
"Fucked up" is the most merciful way it could be put for her. She flat out murdered him. It's infuriating. She must be charged.



veganerd wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/index.html

I've been following this for a couple days. Seems to me like the cop really fucked up.
Apparently her boss also finds the shooting disturbing.

I don't know if it is murder ... I would go with reckless homicide or manslaughter and then write the family a large check
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Re: Terence Crutcher [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Just saw the footage this morning. I heard talking heads opining that the deceased was "doing everything asked of him" but was shot anyway. From what is visible in the helicopter footage, he appeared to be walking back toward his vehicle, and moved his right hand down to his waistline (two things you don't want to do while officers have their weapons trained on you) just before the officer (who sounds a helluva lot like Sarah Palin) appears to have fired.

Is there another video, or a report that gives any explanation as to why shots were fired? I can only imagine she thought he was going for a weapon, in direct opposition to their instruction.

"Canada is like a lofty apartment over a really great party" Robin Williams
Last edited by: sphere: Sep 20, 16 6:23
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Re: Terence Crutcher [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Also, the report I heard had him doing nothing but waiting for help as a stranded motorist. Why the hell were there three officers pointing their weapons, with backup hauling ass to the scene, if that's all it was? I must be missing something.

"Canada is like a lofty apartment over a really great party" Robin Williams
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Re: Terence Crutcher [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I've read that they not be restored an open window not his waistband.

A big problem with her decision to shoot is an officer right next to her used his taser instead.

Ignoring officers commands is not a reason to kill someone.




who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.

"Canada is like a lofty apartment over a really great party" Robin Williams
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Re: Terence Crutcher [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.

Are motorist called 911 telling them the vehicle was abandoned and the driver told her it was going to blow up.

If he were really just trying to deal with his broken down vehicle, and cops showed up treating him like he did something wrong, I can understand why he would just walk away. He clearly walked slowly with his hands up.

Also, the cops statement doesn't match the video.




who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terence Crutcher [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.

Clarity.

That would be nice before we lash-out at all cops.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Old Hickory wrote:
sphere wrote:
I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.


Clarity.

That would be nice before we lash-out at all cops.

We have basically no details, but social media is already flooded with BarryP style complaints about how people are upset about Kaepernick but don't care about cops killing innocent men.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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I can understand why he would just walk away.

Good thing you aren't a large black man.

Honestly, given the perception as police as blood-thirsty black man hunters, how is it that ostensibly innocent people continue to defy police instruction WHILE GUNS ARE DRAWN and make moves that can be misconstrued as reaching for a weapon.

"Canada is like a lofty apartment over a really great party" Robin Williams
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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I've read that they not be restored an open window not his waistband.

Looks like the waistband to me. Might've been reaching for the door or window after that, it's hard to tell.


A big problem with her decision to shoot is an officer right next to her used his taser instead.

That's not necessarily a problem with her decision. It might be a problem with his decision.


Ignoring officers commands is not a reason to kill someone.


It certainly can be. Depends on the circumstances and the orders.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Terence Crutcher [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Old Hickory wrote:
sphere wrote:
I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.


Clarity.

That would be nice before we lash-out at all cops.


We have basically no details, but social media is already flooded with BarryP style complaints about how people are upset about Kaepernick but don't care about cops killing innocent men.

No details is the core product of social media.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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veganerd wrote:
I've read that they not be restored an open window not his waistband.

A big problem with her decision to shoot is an officer right next to her used his taser instead.

Ignoring officers commands is not a reason to kill someone.

It is not very clear why they even felt the need to tase him.

There is a 911 call transcript where the caller says he tried to talk to the guy and he was acting weird.

Given Tulsa's history from the 1920's this could get to be very ugly. I would bet that gets brought up by more than a few people.

We are so fucked.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
Old Hickory wrote:
sphere wrote:
I'm not defending her actions. I'm trying to figure out why he appears to have been treated like a high level threat, when the narrative emerging from his community is that he was just a stranded motorist waiting for help. That story doesn't match up with his refusal to follow commands, or their defensive handling of the situation. I've not read any details that add clarity as of yet.


Clarity.

That would be nice before we lash-out at all cops.

We have basically no details, but social media is already flooded with BarryP style complaints about how people are upset about Kaepernick but don't care about cops killing innocent men.

Even the cops boss is disturbed by her decision to shoot.

Also: should we always just automatically side with the police? Should we take their word and assume they're telling the truth vs the person/witnesses they interact with? Cops are humans. They make mistakes, they lie to cover their asses or sometimes they lie just to fuck with people.

https://www.aclu.org/...inal-charges-against

There are a ton of great cops too. Unfortunately, their refusal to hold fellow cops accountable makes them pretty shitty. If cops who make mistakes or bad cops were called out by their fellow officers, there would be a lot more community trust in cops.




who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Terence Crutcher [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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It is not very clear why they even felt the need to tase him.

Because he wasn't complying with their orders, and instead walked back to his car and tried to get back inside. (I watched the video again, and it's hard to say, but it looks like rather than reaching for his waistband, he was trying to open the car door. Which might be consistent with the cops' claim that he reached in through the window afterwards.)

When you have a couple of cops with their weapons pointed at you and you don't do what they're telling you to do, getting tased is about the least you can expect. And walking back to your car in that situation is a huge red flag for cops- let alone trying to open the door or reach in the window. They have no idea what you have in the car, and if they've been telling you to stop, keep your hands up, get on the ground, or whatever, and instead you walk back to your car and reach in through the window, they're often going to assume that you're reaching for a weapon.

If, on the other hand, the cops in the video had their guns pointed at the guy, and were giving him verbal orders to walk back to his car and retrieve his documents, well, that's different. But that seems unlikely.

If I was inclined to Monday morning quarterback the cops' actions based on this video, I'd say their biggest mistake was not forcing him to comply before he got back to the car. As soon as he started walking back towards the driver side door, they should have tased him or taken him down to the ground. But again, I don't know what they were telling him to do right before that, and I don't know what they knew or didn't know about who or what else was in the car.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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How does it go from having a broken down vehicle to the cops having their guns trained on you? There must be a lot more to this story.

I'll agree it's pretty fucked up if they just showed up, drew their guns and started ordering the guy around with little to no cause.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

It is not very clear why they even felt the need to tase him.

Because he wasn't complying with their orders, and instead walked back to his car and tried to get back inside. (I watched the video again, and it's hard to say, but it looks like rather than reaching for his waistband, he was trying to open the car door. Which might be consistent with the cops' claim that he reached in through the window afterwards.)

When you have a couple of cops with their weapons pointed at you and you don't do what they're telling you to do, getting tased is about the least you can expect. And walking back to your car in that situation is a huge red flag for cops- let alone trying to open the door or reach in the window. They have no idea what you have in the car, and if they've been telling you to stop, keep your hands up, get on the ground, or whatever, and instead you walk back to your car and reach in through the window, they're often going to assume that you're reaching for a weapon.

If, on the other hand, the cops in the video had their guns pointed at the guy, and were giving him verbal orders to walk back to his car and retrieve his documents, well, that's different. But that seems unlikely.

If I was inclined to Monday morning quarterback the cops' actions based on this video, I'd say their biggest mistake was not forcing him to comply before he got back to the car. As soon as he started walking back towards the driver side door, they should have tased him or taken him down to the ground. But again, I don't know what they were telling him to do right before that, and I don't know what they knew or didn't know about who or what else was in the car.

So the story is they were telling him to stop and not go to the car? If that is what was going on I think you are right. Why would they let him get all the way to where something dangerous could happen before acting?

My gut in most of these cases (with a couple notable exceptions) is that someone panics rather than having evil in mind. I'm wondering if the taser going off surprised her and she fired. Having 5 or 6 cops on the scene you would hope they could resolve this correctly.

We are so fucked.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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A reasonable person would see the danger and immediately comply, deescalate. "Whoa whoa whoa, officer, I'm stranded, car broke down, that's all. I just need a hand." Stand still, hands up, kneel, or whatever else is asked of them.

This is really simple stuff, for the average person. The data show that police shootings far more often than not involved victims that had either mental illness or other contributing health problems (deafness, hypoglycemia, etc). Who knows yet if that played a role, or if plain old stupidity got him killed.

"Canada is like a lofty apartment over a really great party" Robin Williams
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Re: Terence Crutcher [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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So the story is they were telling him to stop and not go to the car?


I don't know what the "story" is, or what they were actually telling him or not telling him, I'm just speculating based on a very short video clip. But I think it would be highly unusual for a couple of cops to point their weapons at a person and then instruct that person to walk back to his car and reach for something inside. What cops are going to tell you to do in that situation is stop, keep your hands visible, don't move, etc etc.

Why would they let him get all the way to where something dangerous could happen before acting?

Maybe a failure to recognize the situation quickly enough, maybe a reluctance to use force to stop him, maybe they were concerned about who else was in the car or in the area, maybe they were worried he had a weapon on his person, maybe something else, maybe some combination of all of that. I don't know. Seems like they failed to control the situation adequately, for whatever reason.


My gut in most of these cases (with a couple notable exceptions) is that someone panics rather than having evil in mind.

Could be.

I'm wondering if the taser going off surprised her and she fired. Having 5 or 6 cops on the scene you would hope they could resolve this correctly.

That could be, too. And yeah, you'd like to think five cops could resolve this correctly. But they're human, they make mistakes, and these things do happen fast.

Comply with orders from police. That's my take away here.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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There are a ton of great cops too. Unfortunately, their refusal to hold fellow cops accountable makes them pretty shitty. If cops who make mistakes or bad cops were called out by their fellow officers, there would be a lot more community trust in cops.

Bad cops are called out by their fellow officers all the time. They just don't go public with it to satisfy social media curiosity. They file their report. They cooperate with the investigation, and the let the process play out, without getting hysterical about it. In the vast majority of incidents where police are investigated internally for misconduct, it's because a fellow officer told management.

In my experience working with police, most officers view bad cops as a danger to themselves and others, and that's not something they easily tolerate. They also know that in this day, there's a good chance someone's recording what they do, and they don't want to be held accountable for not having reported or worse, falsely reporting something.
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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Seems to me like the cop really fucked up.

Maybe. But why not wait for the investigation rather than jumping to conclusions?
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Re: Terence Crutcher [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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You were wanting more details in the muslim/not muslim-terrorism/not terrorism thread. Same should apply here.

We don't know what the cops said to him yet. We don't know why he was moving towards his car.

Her boss is disturbed. Ok. Why is he/she disturbed? Still no details.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Terence Crutcher [H-] [ In reply to ]
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H- wrote:
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Seems to me like the cop really fucked up.

Maybe. But why not wait for the investigation rather than jumping to conclusions?

That's why I offered an opinion rather than fact. I didn't jump to a conclusion. I watched 2 videos of the incident and didn't see anything that warranted killing a person then offered my opinion. That's pretty much the opposite of jumping to a conclusion.




who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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