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Patriotism

 

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....

Sep 3, 04 22:07

Post #1 of 51 (2718 views)
Patriotism Quote | Reply

after a discussion about the war, the troups, the french, iraq with a friend who is republican, I remembered that quote:

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."
-- Mark Twain

just wanted to post it here...


Cousin Elwood

Sep 4, 04 6:16

Post #2 of 51 (2711 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"and your government when it deserves it."
- - Twain's time would probably have been about the last vestiges of any governance worthy of our respect. Certainly not much in the last 100.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...


SOUP!

Sep 4, 04 8:13

Post #3 of 51 (2708 views)
Re: Patriotism [Cousin Elwood] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great quote, Francois. You have to love Mark Twain.

The superstrong faith in American exceptionalism is very embarrassing. Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but I also recognize that France is a beautiful land with people who truly know (with more clarity than any American can know) what war is like at home.

We are buffered by two large oceans and we have used this essentially since our birth as a nation as a platform from which to condescend to other nations about how they should run their business.

Just look at the casualty numbers/population numbers between nations in World War II and make the decision on who is qualified to comment on war from that.


WHeinle

Sep 4, 04 8:57

Post #4 of 51 (2704 views)
Re: Patriotism [SOUP!] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great perspective SOUP. I agree with you, there's a difference between going to another country and fight a war and having one in your own backyard. All my parents remember from their early childhood (dad was born in 38 and mom in 41) is the sirens going off, getting he prepacked suitcase and running into the bunker and when they came out not knowing what was left of their town.

Mark Twain truely said some profound and true things.



Wilfried Heinle

Artificial Intelligence can never beat natural stupidity.


....

Sep 4, 04 9:06

Post #5 of 51 (2703 views)
Re: Patriotism [SOUP!] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

and to be honest, the french gov. isn't much better right now...it's in place only because that was Chirac or Le Pen and the lesser evil was far less of an evil than Le Pen...


Casey

Sep 4, 04 11:01

Post #6 of 51 (2695 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] (Deleted by Casey) [In reply to]

 


....

Sep 4, 04 11:14

Post #7 of 51 (2691 views)
Re: Patriotism [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

there is a war in Iraq?

truly sad...we have lots of soldiers from Fort Bliss out there...some will not come back...

let's face it....the war in Iraq is not 'media-fashionable' anymore...


think-or-thwim

Sep 4, 04 11:20

Post #8 of 51 (2691 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Chirac is definitely the better of the worse..after all Le Pen was known to be extremely nationalistic/ extreme right wing . At times where Europe is moving closer together, all of Europe can be glad for Chirac to have won the last elections. Imagine Berlusconi for Italy and Le Pen for France...Ohhh NO!

---------------
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....

Sep 4, 04 11:33

Post #9 of 51 (2688 views)
Re: Patriotism [think-or-thwim] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

or whoever the guy in Austria is...(the one in Klagenfurt...can hear the military boots from here...)

Chirac was definitely a better choice than le Pen...but not a good choice nonetheless...


haystack

Sep 5, 04 15:48

Post #10 of 51 (2658 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

American patriotism is standing up for liberty and individual rights, even when it isn't fashionable. I prefer Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry to Mark Twain.

I love and support my country even when it doesn't deserve it. Why? Because I know it's better than the other choices. Why else would so many be dying (literally) to come to America and become Americans?

You know this better than most, Francois.


Sean


Casey

Sep 5, 04 16:13

Post #11 of 51 (2653 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] (Deleted by Casey) [In reply to]

 


slowguy

Sep 5, 04 16:29

Post #12 of 51 (2648 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm a patriot and love America, but not everyone is dying to get here, nor are those who make it necessarily all staying. The most recent emmigration data compiled from the INS estimates that each year 220,00 foreign born persons leave the country and 48,000 US born Americans leave as well. Between 1990 and 1999, it was estimated that for every 100 immigrants allowed into the US, about 30 decided to return home. these numbers are not people being deported or kicked out or extradited, just those who decide the US isn't for them.


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


haystack

Sep 5, 04 16:43

Post #13 of 51 (2647 views)
Re: Patriotism [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, there are MANY other choices. I didn't say that EVERYONE want's to live here.

Canada is a Socialist society, right? As with all Socialist societies, they all think they are right about everything for everyone. They're all the same. That's what's wrong with Socialism. John Kerry is a Liberal Democrat aka Socialist. That's why most citizens of other Socialist countries like him. He speaks the language of Socialism.

I really don't care how America is viewed in the eyes of the world's Socialist countries and neither does George Bush. That makes them inconsequential and that's why they're pissed. GB and Washington are the best friends you can have and the worst enemies.

What do Canadians have to do with American politics? They can't vote for Kerry, so what difference does it make. Why are they more concerned about America than Canada, unless they realize that America means more to the world than Canada does. That could be why they're pissed.

Don't you think Canadians would get a little pissed if Americans started telling them their Prime Minister REALLY SUCKED! Who am I to tell Canadians anything related to their government. I can't vote in their elections. How arrogant it is for those Canadians to think they are/know better than this American administration.


Sean


slowguy

Sep 5, 04 16:55

Post #14 of 51 (2645 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Don't you think Canadians would get a little pissed if Americans started telling them their Prime Minister REALLY SUCKED! Who am I to tell Canadians anything related to their government. I can't vote in their elections. How arrogant it is for those Canadians to think they are/know better than this American administration"

We substitue our judgment for that of other countries' citizens all the time. Who are we to criticize the Spanish Govt or the N. Korean Govt. or the Cubans Govt.? The Canadians are our neighbors and allies, so they have a vested interest in who our leaders are and what their polices are. Why wouldn't they express their disagreements with our President?


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


....

Sep 5, 04 18:06

Post #15 of 51 (2642 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you think I'd die to come to the US???
you're joking right?

How do you know it's better than other choices? in how many countries have you lived except in the US?

To tell you the truth, this country here (the US) is really dying to get people with degrees in the relevant fields, but is not doing ANYTHING at all to help...still have to go through the same crap. Whereas Canada will accept someone like me very easily...and if Bush goes through and changes the immigration laws according to his plan, it's gonna get such a pain in the ass to get permanent residence, that I would very likely leave to Canada where they don't just tell you they need you, they show it too...


jhc

Sep 5, 04 19:22

Post #16 of 51 (2637 views)
Re: Patriotism [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Who are we to criticize the Spanish Govt or the N. Korean Govt. or the Cubans Govt.?
I think Cuba and N Korea are bad examples - the people there don't have a lot of say in their national politics or in choosing their national leader...



_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ


slowguy

Sep 5, 04 19:39

Post #17 of 51 (2636 views)
Re: Patriotism [jhc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"I think Cuba and N Korea are bad examples - the people there don't have a lot of say in their national politics or in choosing their national leader... "

Regardless, we stick our noses in how plenty of countries run their business, including those with dictators, and those with elected govts. My point was that the Canadians have as much right to be vocal about our goernmental shortcomings as we have to bitch about how the French do business or the Mexicans or the Germans, or anyone else for that matter. In a world that is getting smaller every day, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have an opinion about your neighbors.


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


Goose

Sep 5, 04 23:43

Post #18 of 51 (2634 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Do you have any idea what socialism is? Or did you see five seconds of a history channel segment on Communism and suddenly believe every country but the good ol' USofA is run by Stalins in training. Communism is a more radical form of socialism, just like the KKK and "Moral Majority" is a more radical form of the Republican party. Since Bush is a Republican does that mean we are going to revert to segregation, or even slavery? You need to get a clue instead of dismissing every idea from another country as socialist and therefore moot. Socialism is designed with the majority in mind rather then the social elite, funny I thought thats what democracy was for...once.


mojozenmaster

Sep 6, 04 2:51

Post #19 of 51 (2630 views)
Re: Patriotism [Goose] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Socialism is designed with the majority in mind rather then the social elite"

Socialism is about equality. For everyone, all the time, under all circumstances with the government as the enforcer of what is good for you and me and our neighbors.

Liberty is about me as an individual to do whatever I want, whenever I want, to make my own decisions in life and either rejoice or suffer as a result of those decisions.

I will take liberty over equality any day.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**


....

Sep 6, 04 7:01

Post #20 of 51 (2626 views)
Re: Patriotism [mojozenmaster] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Socialism is about equality. For everyone, all the time, under all circumstances with the government as the enforcer of what is good for you and me and our neighbors."

misconception...because one of the key phrases of socialism is "everyone according to its needs" (meaning, all should be split equally) when most people forget the second part of the sentence
"and according to its merit"

France had a socialist gov. (despite what many think they know here, Chirac's gov. is not socialist, it's plain right, just clueless once more) and I can guarantee you that under Mitterrand, if you didn't do shit, you wouldn't get anything at all.

There are the same you have here, if you work a lot, in a field that pays well, you will make a lot of money when a janitor is not making much at all...


slowguy

Sep 6, 04 7:13

Post #21 of 51 (2625 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My understanding about socialism is that everyone contributes to the collective what they can, so the wealthy give more than the peasant, and each get's back from the collective both what they need and what they deserve. The idea is not that everyone gets the same share of the resources, but that nobody gets left behind by the collective if they are willing to contribute. The idea is to encourage everyone to contribute whatever they can, by making sure they get something back in return.

I could be wrong about this, it's been awhile since I did much reading on the subject.


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


....

Sep 6, 04 7:19

Post #22 of 51 (2623 views)
Re: Patriotism [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

that's the idea indeed...so of course some use the system, but it's the same thing here too...

your representation is very close to what socialism is in Euro countries (and not what some here have portrayed...)

You have socialized medecine (for everyone, regardless of income), University is FREE except about 150 euros of tuition per year and accessible by anyone who has passed the baccalaureat (national exam).

I am not saying that everything is great (far from this...for instance many gov. jobs are a shame...) but there are some very good ideas...


slowguy

Sep 6, 04 7:45

Post #23 of 51 (2619 views)
Re: Patriotism [Francois] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think there isn't one single system that works. There are some huge advantages to capitalism, and some for socialism, and only if you pick and choose and get the right mix can you do it right. It's the balanace that is difficult.


Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


....

Sep 6, 04 7:47

Post #24 of 51 (2618 views)
Re: Patriotism [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dude, you sound like Aristotle :-)


vitus979

Sep 6, 04 10:27

Post #25 of 51 (2612 views)
Re: Patriotism [haystack] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I love and support my country even when it doesn't deserve it. Why? Because I know it's better than the other choices.

Well now, there's a concept I can get behind: "I love my country, it's the lesser of evils!"

Good grief, have we come to this?

ps- How's your research into the origins of capitalism going, haystack?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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