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Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14...
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According to the CBC, Ontario -- which had raised the minimum wage by 20%, to $14 hourly (Canadian, I'm assuming ;-) in January -- saw a loss of 53,900 part-time jobs from December, 2017. It gained about 8,900 full-time positions, for a net loss of 50,900 gigs.

The linked article says "experts say it may be too soon to know how much the two are correlated." That's understandable, of course, given that December may have featured a number of temporary holiday-type positions, for one. For another, economics is a social science, with math envy, and is by its nature an inexact science in many regards. So no wonder "experts" don't know.

So what say you folks living in the fabulous Province of Ontario, eh? I didn't even know they were fooling around with the minimum wage there (and I live right across the river from the place and listen mostly to the two Canadian alternative rock stations, 89X and The River, hahaha!).
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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That's what happens when governments try to dictate the appropriate wage level instead of the free market.

You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Between the cost of hydro and this hike in wages I don't know how small businesses are staying afloat. Things are getting cra cra up her.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Well in two weeks the Consumer Price Index numbers will be released for inflation so it will be interesting to see how that will trend. Economists (not the ones the Liberal Party hired) have been saying longer term it will not be good for anyone. And in one year the min wage will go up again to $15.
Our famous coffee chain was under fire because some franchisees changed from paid breaks to unpaid breaks to help mitigate the cost increase since their prices remained the same. People (the less intelligent ones) were calling for a boycott of Tim Hortons as a result.


"Perhaps I'm chock full of inner demons"
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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I think it would have been better to support policies that generate business activity and thus drive up wages. Having said that part of the problem is that minimum wage had not gone up for some time and then quite a jump all at once. It is creating all sorts of problems. Jobs that are tough that pay between 15-20 an hour are now being jettisoned by these workers for easier slightly less paying jobs

Local rest and nursing home is in somewhat of crisis. Workers calling in "sick" and no one to replace them. Health care aides in particular. Short staffing a big problem. Gov't also brought in legislation regarding minimum lead in time for call ins etc which makes it harder for small business to staff themselves. I don't know the answer aside from entry level jobs for students if you are willing to work you should get a wage you can survive on.

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
I think it would have been better to support policies that generate business activity and thus drive up wages. Having said that part of the problem is that minimum wage had not gone up for some time and then quite a jump all at once. It is creating all sorts of problems. Jobs that are tough that pay between 15-20 an hour are now being jettisoned by these workers for easier slightly less paying jobs

Local rest and nursing home is in somewhat of crisis. Workers calling in "sick" and no one to replace them. Health care aides in particular. Short staffing a big problem. Gov't also brought in legislation regarding minimum lead in time for call ins etc which makes it harder for small business to staff themselves. I don't know the answer aside from entry level jobs for students if you are willing to work you should get a wage you can survive on.

These (yours as well as the others) are all great insights. I thought I was attuned to Ontario just by close proximity to it, but as usual... I really didn't know all that much about it. And that's with a manager peer with dual US-Canadian citizenship who lives in Windsor working with me every day. I was wondering why he was raging about the "minimum wage increase." I thought he was talking about Michigan and the Detroit area. LOL!
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [len] [ In reply to ]
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That's an interesting point re: wage compression that I hadn't considered. Why would I break my back for $16 per hour when I could bake donuts for $15. I know a guy who works at Timmies, the night shift, because he gets the overnight premium and can watch Netflix on his phone all night cause there are no customers.

The other issue is going to be the ripple effect of wage compression in general. If I've worked somewhere for 4 yrs, hustled to make "supervisor" with the 0.50$/hr premium and made it all the way to $15/hr with annual increases, etc. and now the entry-level unskilled guy gets the same $$, I'm asking for more, or I'm outta there...
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Lost 53,900 jobs
Gain 8,900 jobs

By my maths that's a loss of 45,000 jobs.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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And we have Orvil Redenbacher running our government. What do you expect?



How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Last edited by: BLeP: Feb 12, 18 8:06
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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If only there was a party that still believed this guy.


You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Lost 53,900 jobs
Gain 8,900 jobs

I think they were trying to differentiate all the numbers between fulltime and parttime amounts.

It was a big number, but canada as a whole was looking at 88,000 jobs lost... from link:
Part-time employment declined (-137,000), while full-time employment was up (+49,000)

I believe its still a little to too early to state the minimum wage increase in ontario is a failure.
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
If only there was a party that still believed this guy.

He didn't believe it himself. Or at least didn't practice what he preached.


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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Lost 53,900 jobs
Gain 8,900 jobs

By my maths that's a loss of 45,000 jobs.

Big K got the job loss number wrong. it was 59k part time jobs gone, 9k full time jobs added.

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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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true, but wasn't a lot of that the big military build up that eventually took down the Soviet Union?
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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true, but wasn't a lot of that the big military build up that eventually took down the Soviet Union?

It was but is Putin a lot better?


You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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well, that wasn't the context of the above comment but I get what you are saying :)
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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A little. I think they increased defence spending 2% or so.

The majority was the result of Reagan's first tax cut.
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
true, but wasn't a lot of that the big military build up that eventually took down the Soviet Union?

It was but is Putin a lot better?

What is the number of people that live in free democracies today but were previously in the Iron Curtain?
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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Runguy wrote:
true, but wasn't a lot of that the big military build up that eventually took down the Soviet Union?

They tried to match the Reagan military buildup (600-ship Navy, MX missile system, cruise missiles, and the promise of a "Star Wars" space-based ICBM defenses (hahahaha!) etc.) and their economy (which was creaky to begin with) couldn't support it, which is how they got Gorbachev and so forth. The Soviet premier looked for a way to convince the US to cycle the military buildup down, but Reagan wasn't having any of it, especially at Reykjavik -- where Gorbachev tried to convince Reagan and the US to limit Star Wars to lab testing only for the next 10 years -- and it became a contributing factor (definitely not the only, or even most important, one) that led to the USSR's eventual dissolution.

It's been said of the Soviet Union (and even today's Russia) that they were a Second (or even Third) World economy, but with a First World military, and it ended up costing them. Today, China's economy is much larger than Russia's and I don't think they (Russia) could match us on a near-peer military basis, straight-up on the battlefield. Neither can China, but they're definitely taking steps to correct that imbalance. Both are looking at other ways to prevail, however, especially in terms of cyberwar and in taking out our satellites (China and North Korea are doing so, as well). Blind us, space-wise, and it becomes a much more competitive battlespace environment.

Also, I'm pretty sure the minimum wage in Russia is pretty low compared to Canada's, eh? ;-)
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [H-] [ In reply to ]
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What is the number of people that live in free democracies today but were previously in the Iron Curtain?

There are a lot more in free democracies. The fall of the Soviet Union was largely due to economics and not the size of the U.S military.

Gorbachev wanted to move towards a more capitalistic country because of the failing economy. There was also a marked economic failing in East Germany, Czech, Poland etc., and that always leads to unrest. The Politburo in the USSR was old and it was only a matter of time until the younger generation started demanding changes, particularly when the economy was doing so poorly.




You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
According to the CBC, Ontario -- which had raised the minimum wage by 20%, to $14 hourly (Canadian, I'm assuming ;-) in January -- saw a loss of 53,900 part-time jobs from December, 2017. It gained about 8,900 full-time positions, for a net loss of 50,900 gigs.

The linked article says "experts say it may be too soon to know how much the two are correlated." That's understandable, of course, given that December may have featured a number of temporary holiday-type positions, for one. For another, economics is a social science, with math envy, and is by its nature an inexact science in many regards. So no wonder "experts" don't know.

So what say you folks living in the fabulous Province of Ontario, eh? I didn't even know they were fooling around with the minimum wage there (and I live right across the river from the place and listen mostly to the two Canadian alternative rock stations, 89X and The River, hahaha!).


This is the most intellectually dishonest of pursuits. It boggles the mind. Can you imagine us deciding to purposely increase CO2 production and then note that the temperature went up, but then have our "experts" just say "it may be too soon to know how much the two are correlated." Sure, they might not technically know from a scientific data analysis point of view how much each data set is correlated, but they damn well would let you know -- from the get go -- what the underlying science had to say about the whole enterprise of jacking up CO2 production. On minimum wage increases we just get crickets chirping. This is shameful.
Last edited by: SH: Feb 12, 18 12:52
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:

Also, I'm pretty sure the minimum wage in Russia is pretty low compared to Canada's, eh? ;-)


I was curious about that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ries_by_minimum_wage


Russia is only $0.79/hr (USD). Don't know what that is bowls of borscht.
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/highlights-of-sweeping-new-ontario-labour-laws-including-a-minimum-wage-boost-1.3689778


You should read this. Employees have right to refuse a shift if given less than 4 days notice. Meanwhile employee can call in sick and employer legally cannot ask for doctors note. Try running a rest home or many other service businesses with this situation. If worker shift cancelled with less than 48 hours notice employer must pay 3 hours pay. If an employee is a victim of sexual or domestic violence employer must give 5 days of paid leave. Why is employer now the victim of the domestic violence as well. If the paid leave is important shouldn't gov't pay? All employees entitled to 10 days per year of personal leave with 2 of those days paid. After 5 years employee gets 3 weeks of pd vacation automatically. Allow unions to access employee contact information if they can demonstrate 20 percent of employees support their union. Workers have up to 18 months of leave after birth of child (federal legislation)


This is on top of businesses having to have anti-harassment and bullying policies in places and many other hoops they have to jump through.


When I had employees I always paid well above average wage gave yearly bonus of at least a weeks pay and treated them like family but I also was in a non-competitve service industry. The paper work and red tape to operate a small business now is burdensome.

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it is only one data point. Taking your analogy, one month is akin to "weather". One can't determine climate shifts from a particular temperature on a given day. Christmas time might be a poor time to determine the correct baseline.


Back to the topic, what do you think the optimal minimum wage should be? I guess that every province in Canada sets their own. Is it too low or too high in Ontario? After all, almost every country has had a minimum wage for the past century or so. If you oppose ANY minimum, do you prefer the union-driven wage levels in which binding arbitration is enforced by the government for all workers in a given sector? (Scandinavia/Switzerland/Austria/Italy and others do that with a resulting income generally higher than nominal minimum wage). Those really are the only two choices that are out there, especially for industrialized countries (unless you pine for the good ole' 19th century).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country#Countries
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Re: Ontario (Canada, eh?) and the Minimum Wage Hike to $14... [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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So what say you folks living in the fabulous Province of Ontario, eh? I didn't even know they were fooling around with the minimum wage there (and I live right across the river from the place and listen mostly to the two Canadian alternative rock stations, 89X and The River, hahaha!).


Well you'll not hear this kind of news on Rock Music Stations from Windsor. You'll need to tune in to CBC Radio for that. Not exactly the same but in some respects similar to your NPR!

As to the minimum wage issue. It's meant as a measure, and to appeal to those in the lower economic group of people working entry level or basic service jobs, who quite frankly if you are living in the Toronto area their is NO WAY you are going to make ends-meet on the money you are making - and that's not even going to happen at $14 or even $15/hour - but at least the government will be SEEN to be doing something to help these folks out.

Ontario right now, is somewhat similar to some areas of the U.S. - record low unemployment, still low interest rates, manufacturing numbers holding their own, and consumer confidence, at an OK level, but dive below the surface, and you'll see many who are working minimum wage jobs actually working two jobs, and struggling to get by. Many in this category are recent immigrants.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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