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ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe
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I am going to suspend my favorable opinions of the movie...of which there were many. But even though I kind of knew the story and how it ends it was still a solid film IMO. I will pose these 2 questions however: Why is Brolin such a stud in every movie? That dude is cool. And am I the only one who thinks J Conn is attractive? Man she flies under the radar. Moving on...

I saw the other post about the gripe with the firefighters since 9/11 thing and while that doesn't really bother me you know what does, the fact we can't get our GD firefighters some fire sacks that actually work. Don't know if those are just meant to just be placebos for a doomed situation to keep hope alive, or the economics of making something that actually works is too cost prohibitive, or something else, but its been a few days since my wife and I watched it and I am still affected by the fact of how those boys went down. Can you even imagine. Then I read up on the story and saw where it got even uglier as the widows were denied benefits and other townspeople started calling them opportunists looking for money but come on, whether that is true or not I want to live in a world where those brave people get the protection they deserve.

I suspect some will say there will always be this fire or those perfect conditions where nothing would work, or how that story is an outlier and fire sacks works 98% of the time (but what about the other 2!), or whatever, but then again I have a hard time even believing that. That feels like BS spin to me. Maybe I am too idealistic, but we can send man made satellites wrapped and protected in tin foil to interstellar space (cold not hot I get it) and can perform many other SPECTACULAR feats of human achievement, so lets' just up the ante on advanced aluminum foil and protect all of them. Is that too much to ask?

Hopefully no one on here has ever had a family member or friend in that situation.

Lastly, not to be a total downer, but

Granite Mountain Hotshots
Killed
  • Andrew Ashcraft, 29
  • Robert Caldwell, 23
  • Travis Carter, 31
  • Dustin Deford, 24
  • Christopher MacKenzie, 30
  • Eric Marsh, 43
  • Grant McKee, 21
  • Sean Misner, 26
  • Scott Norris, 28
  • Wade Parker, 22
  • John Percin, 24
  • Anthony Rose, 23
  • Jesse Steed, 36
  • Joe Thurston, 32
  • Travis Turbyfill, 27
  • William Warneke, 25
  • Clayton Whitted, 28
  • Kevin Woyjeck, 21
  • Garret Zuppiger, 27

Crew member not at deployment site
  • Brendan McDonough, 21


Bless those souls.

I'm done. Thanks for listening. And see the movie. Its heavy, but solid.
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [yrebetta] [ In reply to ]
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Brolin is a stud. J Conn is very hot.

As to your other point - in a fire that size, even if the bags were completely fire resistant, the oxygen is sucked from the air. Lack of oxygen and smoke inhalation would be enough to kill them, regardless of the sack. They cannot carry SCBA equipment because it is too heavy and they are supposed to move and clear well ahead of the flames.

Loved the movie! Nothing but respect for those men.

Unfortunately, there are questions regarding their qualifications and their physical condition the day of that fire.

http://www.investigativemedia.com/...eased-to-the-public/

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the link. That's sobering. No pun intended.

I hold out that there must be a way. Maybe little o tanks for them to breathe when in those things. I guess they might then explode from the heat, but something. Anything. If in that situation there must be at least one way to survive. There must be!

The glass must always be half full.
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [yrebetta] [ In reply to ]
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I think the biggest issue is that these guys are never supposed to be IN the fire. These guys are not smokejumpers, who actually parachute right in the line of the fire. Smokejumpers carry 115+ lbs of gear, which sometimes includes SCBA devices.

Hot shots are supposed to be on foot and move very quickly from point to point. They are not supposed to engage the fire. They are to be well in front of it.

My biggest surprise is that they do not use more ATVs. It would seem to be the ideal transport and could carry a lot more protective gear.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I just finished reading Sebastian Junger's Fire, which has one essay about another similar fire catastrophe. And similar questions in the aftermath.

The investigation found that the firefighters waited *way* too long before hitting the "panic button" despite obvious signs. And then when they realized they were in deep shit some deployed their shelters instead of the better option of running. And some who ran carried their gear (e.g. chainsaws) with them. The investigators calculated that if they'd all just dropped their gear and jogged at a reasonable sustained pace, they would have lived. Two who did the right thing by dropping everything and running lived.

But the families didn't want to hear that report.

The science behind the "explosive" flash burns is really interesting. Apparently it's not totally understood (or wasn't when Junger wrote the book). Wind speed alone doesn't explain the speed of the fires. The theory is that wind brings superheated winds into unburned stands of trees, and those trees start off-gassing flammable vapors. When those vapors ignite, it's like an explosion. It's a rare enough effect requiring just the right winds and conditions that it can catch even experienced firefighters off guard. Apparently 99% of forest fires you can stay ahead of with just a brisk walk. So they can lull you into complacency.
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [trail] [ In reply to ]
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That's a lot to take in. Ones situational awareness has to be really dialed in or else one mistake or miscalculation, and boom, you're gone. And when fatigued it's becomes even harder. I admire those that do it. Super impressive when you stop and think about it.

But its hard to imagine those huge fires can be defeated just by jogging away though. That seems like a stretch and I wonder if the investigators are full of it to get the blame off someone's back. They could be in the pocket of those who dole out the money when all is said and done.
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [yrebetta] [ In reply to ]
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [yrebetta] [ In reply to ]
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My wife and I enjoyed the movie. As certified wildland firefighters (inactive) it really hit home. We both obviously knew the story and the outcome. Didn't stop her from ugly crying for the last 30 minutes.

As already pointed out. The actual shelters do a darn good job against the flames- it's the O2 that's an issue. The extreme temperatures even for a few minutes are overwhelming in that size fire.

The Outside article is linked and the report is mentioned. Mistakes were made. Unfortunately, so many paid with their lives. The film repeatedly mentions the fire safety rules. The rules were written because people died. Again, unfortunately, in the heat of the moment in the Yarnell fire, some of those rules were broken or bent. Not passing blame. It's just a statement.

Good movie. Glad wildland firefighters finally got their own. Way better than Backdraft!
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Re: ONLY THE BRAVE movie gripe [yrebetta] [ In reply to ]
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Canada does not give fire shelters to their firefighters, and I think tend to have a very different mindset when it comes to them. I am yet to see a building, tree, bush, or blade of grass that is worth more than my firefighters' lives. On small fires, you can get in front and build a line to stop it. On big fires, you contain the flanks and wait for a weather change to slow and shrink the front end before you can attack it. If the risk is too great, you look for other tactics.

I haven't watched the movie yet (probably later this week), but I have read reports, studies, and articles about this situation, and I still have not found a good reason that they put themselves into a spot they could not get out of. I have read a few things saying that their upper-level types were eager to show what they could do, and possibly rushed into a situation they had not totally thought through.

I do think that the shelters are more of a calming device than anything. It gives the entrapped firefighters something to keep them busy while they die. As others have said, if the extreme heat doesn't kill you, the complete lack of oxygen will.

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Starting from scratch...
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