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Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure
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Because doesn't want to date a "woman" with a penis he's insecure? "If the idea that a guy dating a trans woman makes him gay then what you're basically saying is that a trans woman is not a woman, she's like a boy playing dress up."
From the video: https://www.dailywire.com/node/25448


Similarly, former R&B star is called transphobe when he won't kiss a transgender woman who's making unwanted advances. I'm not sure where the #MeToo movement is on this one.
https://www.dailywire.com/...amanda-prestigiacomo
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
Because doesn't want to date a "woman" with a penis he's insecure? "If the idea that a guy dating a trans woman makes him gay then what you're basically saying is that a trans woman is not a woman, she's like a boy playing dress up."
From the video: https://www.dailywire.com/node/25448


Similarly, former R&B star is called transphobe when he won't kiss a transgender woman who's making unwanted advances. I'm not sure where the #MeToo movement is on this one.
https://www.dailywire.com/...amanda-prestigiacomo

Guess I'm very insecure. I've known a few trans folks both M to F and F to M. I even worked with a "male" nurse who used to be female. Changed his name from Maureen to Maurice and kept on working at the same place during the transition. Nice people but I'll stick to non trans women thank you.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [SkipG] [ In reply to ]
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Even my own is one more than I ever wanted to see, right?


SkipG wrote:
couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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This is where it goes off the rails.

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When discussing dating, Willoughby complained that Ginuwine would date women but not him, claiming he really is a woman. When Ginuwine conceded that he would not date Willoughby if he knew he were trans, things escalated.

"I'm a woman, right," said Willoughby. "Forget about any 't's, or anything in front of it. So, on that score, you would date me, wouldn't you?"

"Not if you told me you was trans," replied Ginuwine.

"No, no, I'm not telling you I'm trans," Willoughby insisted. "I'm a woman."


Increasingly, it's not enough to accept trans people for who and what they are; if you don't recognize them as entirely Woman, no different from every other woman, you're transphobic and insulting.

This is why I hold the line on pronouns. Words mean things, and you don't get to redefine entire functional categories based on how you feel about being categorized.

I'm happy to oblige and not call a trans man "he" if he objects, but there's no onus on me or anyone else to categorize a trans male as "she." I think that's a pretty reasonable accommodation, on both sides.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing." -- Ron Swanson
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 18 13:37
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [SkipG] [ In reply to ]
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SkipG wrote:
couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!


No, it probably is that simple. I'm not a penis guy myself. I like (no, I LOVE) the wimmens. If you want to be a penis guy that's your own business, of course. It's just not for me.

But female-appearing TGs are still MEN, NOT WOMEN (and vice-versa), at least at this point in our ability to scientifically alter genetic codes and such. The second TGs stop taking the hormones they need to suppress their naturally born sex characteristics, they become MAN-like (or WOMAN-like) yet again. Duh.

But understanding that and explicating the fact of it is somehow "transphobic." This is a masterful use of language to Otherize hetero men and women and make them think that their homogametic or heterogametic setup is a detriment and not a fact of life, I think.

Also, it seems to me that certain advocacy groups among the far left are working overtime these days to convince people that "gender" as we know it is somehow dependent only on mental outlook rather than on the physical-mental structure that the particular presence of XX or XY chromosomes creates within us. That's profoundly silly, in my opinion, but supposedly sound social "science" (that in reality is neither sound, nor science) is generated seemingly daily that "proves" their point.
Last edited by: big kahuna: Jan 9, 18 13:38
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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I think the #metoo'ers are generally savvy enough to avoid this scud missile. Not that they really overlap, anyway.

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No, I Don't Have To Tell You I'm Trans Before Dating You

Demanding trans people come out to potential partners is transphobic.

...So when a cis person argues that a trans person has an obligation to come out to someone before dating them, they are saying trans people have an obligation to accommodate their transphobia. Plus, claiming that trans people are obligated to come out reinforces the idea that not being attracted to trans people is reasonable. But as I've pointed out, not being attracted to trans people supports the idea that transness is disgusting which is the basis for transphobic oppression.


This is madness.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing." -- Ron Swanson
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 9, 18 13:54
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
Guess I'm very insecure. I've known a few trans folks both M to F and F to M. I even worked with a "male" nurse who used to be female. Changed his name from Maureen to Maurice ...

Could he speak of the Pompatus of Love?



As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I think the #metoo'ers are generally savvy enough to avoid this scud missile. Not that they really overlap, anyway.

Quote:
No, I Don't Have To Tell You I'm Trans Before Dating You

Demanding trans people come out to potential partners is transphobic.

...So when a cis person argues that a trans person has an obligation to come out to someone before dating them, they are saying trans people have an obligation to accommodate their transphobia. Plus, claiming that trans people are obligated to come out reinforces the idea that not being attracted to trans people is reasonable. But as I've pointed out, not being attracted to trans people supports the idea that transness is disgusting which is the basis for transphobic oppression.


This is madness.


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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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"....what you're basically saying is that a trans woman is not a woman, she's like a boy playing dress up."

Um, yeah, pretty much.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I'm so confused. As a big proponent of LGBT rights, I'm still confused by this. I've no problem with transgender folks, going so far to concede that there may very well be a sort of natural gap between what's in the physical parts and the brain chemistry, where one is truly possibly a man on the exterior but fully female in all other ways. We don't have the science to know this, but we haven't had the science to know a lot of things we later discovered were scientifically true....not to say that everyone who's trans fits into that bucket vs. the nurture bucket.

But that said, I also like women. A lot. And if I were to be single again I sure would like to know that someone I would possibly be entering into a relationship with would be fully capable of being what I'm completely attracted to, because no amount of dating and getting to know someone before hitting the sheets, only to find a wang staring me in the face, would suddenly make me overcome everything I like about women in the most basic biological sense. There are some things that just cannot be replicated in any other way, certain smells that are only the way they are when they're what they are, among other things.

I mean, as much as I like a grape flavored Jolly Rancher for what it is, it ain't a grape. And when I want to taste a grape, I want a grape. Or a nectarine.



sphere wrote:
I think the #metoo'ers are generally savvy enough to avoid this scud missile. Not that they really overlap, anyway.

Quote:
No, I Don't Have To Tell You I'm Trans Before Dating You

Demanding trans people come out to potential partners is transphobic.

...So when a cis person argues that a trans person has an obligation to come out to someone before dating them, they are saying trans people have an obligation to accommodate their transphobia. Plus, claiming that trans people are obligated to come out reinforces the idea that not being attracted to trans people is reasonable. But as I've pointed out, not being attracted to trans people supports the idea that transness is disgusting which is the basis for transphobic oppression.


This is madness.
Last edited by: MidwestRoadie: Jan 9, 18 15:07
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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I don't really have any problem with that advocacy to separate the idea of gender from the biology of sex. But when I'm dating someone as a straight dude, I'm attracted to someone whose gender matches their sex, and it's only fair to know that. It's a massive trust issue for a relationship and I don't see how these advocates cannot see that.



big kahuna wrote:
Also, it seems to me that certain advocacy groups among the far left are working overtime these days to convince people that "gender" as we know it is somehow dependent only on mental outlook rather than on the physical-mental structure that the particular presence of XX or XY chromosomes creates within us. That's profoundly silly, in my opinion, but supposedly sound social "science" (that in reality is neither sound, nor science) is generated seemingly daily that "proves" their point.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
SkipG wrote:
couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!


No, it probably is that simple. I'm not a penis guy myself. I like (no, I LOVE) the wimmens. If you want to be a penis guy that's your own business, of course. It's just not for me.

But female-appearing TGs are still MEN, NOT WOMEN (and vice-versa), at least at this point in our ability to scientifically alter genetic codes and such. The second TGs stop taking the hormones they need to suppress their naturally born sex characteristics, they become MAN-like (or WOMAN-like) yet again. Duh.

But understanding that and explicating the fact of it is somehow "transphobic." This is a masterful use of language to Otherize hetero men and women and make them think that their homogametic or heterogametic setup is a detriment and not a fact of life, I think.

Also, it seems to me that certain advocacy groups among the far left are working overtime these days to convince people that "gender" as we know it is somehow dependent only on mental outlook rather than on the physical-mental structure that the particular presence of XX or XY chromosomes creates within us. That's profoundly silly, in my opinion, but supposedly sound social "science" (that in reality is neither sound, nor science) is generated seemingly daily that "proves" their point.

I overheard in Thailand once upon a time "there are no chicks with dicks, they're men with tits!"
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
SkipG wrote:
couldn't be as simple as hey...I don't like dicks!


No, it probably is that simple. I'm not a penis guy myself. I like (no, I LOVE) the wimmens. If you want to be a penis guy that's your own business, of course. It's just not for me.

But female-appearing TGs are still MEN, NOT WOMEN (and vice-versa), at least at this point in our ability to scientifically alter genetic codes and such. The second TGs stop taking the hormones they need to suppress their naturally born sex characteristics, they become MAN-like (or WOMAN-like) yet again. Duh.

But understanding that and explicating the fact of it is somehow "transphobic." This is a masterful use of language to Otherize hetero men and women and make them think that their homogametic or heterogametic setup is a detriment and not a fact of life, I think.

Also, it seems to me that certain advocacy groups among the far left are working overtime these days to convince people that "gender" as we know it is somehow dependent only on mental outlook rather than on the physical-mental structure that the particular presence of XX or XY chromosomes creates within us. That's profoundly silly, in my opinion, but supposedly sound social "science" (that in reality is neither sound, nor science) is generated seemingly daily that "proves" their point.

I think it falls into the same trap of the fat acceptance movement. Sure, obese women can say they're beautiful and sexy as much as they want, but they don't pass the wood test with most sober men. Those men aren't discriminating by refusing to date obese women, and they're not suffering from a phobia of them. They just don't find them attractive as potential partners, hence do not date them.

As a side point, if a transgender person performs a sex act on a hetrosexual person, and said hetrosexual then discovers their partner is transgender and thus regrets the sex act, does it count as rape or sexual assault?

Swim. Overbike. Walk.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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The post reminded me of a Horace and Pete episode (Louis CK's old show)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrXtzYC0Jc
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Where does one stick the ultimate end of a date if you don't like the pooper?
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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MidwestRoadie wrote:
I'm so confused. As a big proponent of LGBT rights, I'm still confused by this. I've no problem with transgender folks, going so far to concede that there may very well be a sort of natural gap between what's in the physical parts and the brain chemistry, where one is truly possibly a man on the exterior but fully female in all other ways. We don't have the science to know this, but we haven't had the science to know a lot of things we later discovered were scientifically true....not to say that everyone who's trans fits into that bucket vs. the nurture bucket.

But that said, I also like women. A lot. And if I were to be single again I sure would like to know that someone I would possibly be entering into a relationship with would be fully capable of being what I'm completely attracted to, because no amount of dating and getting to know someone before hitting the sheets, only to find a wang staring me in the face, would suddenly make me overcome everything I like about women in the most basic biological sense. There are some things that just cannot be replicated in any other way, certain smells that are only the way they are when they're what they are, among other things.

I mean, as much as I like a grape flavored Jolly Rancher for what it is, it ain't a grape. And when I want to taste a grape, I want a grape. Or a nectarine.

Of course. I see it as similar to saying you're homophobic if you aren't attracted to people of the same sex. In their mind they may be a woman, but physically and more importantly in my mind they are not. If someone wants to label that transphobic, than have at it.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Of course. I see it as similar to saying you're homophobic if you aren't attracted to people of the same sex. In their mind they may be a woman, but physically and more importantly in reality they are not. If someone wants to label that transphobic, than have at it.


FIFY.

This is a tactic employed sporadically by the left, and I may be in that small minority that empathizes with their plight but is turned off even more so by that tactic.

Children brought to the United States by illegal immigrants are not Americans, or Citizens. I'd prefer that we do the sensible thing and streamline their path to citizenship, but saying they are because they feel like they are, or because they should be, doesn't make it so. Likewise, health care should be available to all Americans, within reason, and without devastating financial consequences for any citizen if they can't afford the tab. Maybe there's a convincing moral argument for making health care a right of citizenship, but as it stands, it's not. And saying so won't make it so, and it doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard for acknowledging the way things are.

People's opinions of themselves and the world around them don't change the reality of that world. Endorsing those counterfactuals is indulging those delusions.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing." -- Ron Swanson
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 10, 18 4:54
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
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Of course. I see it as similar to saying you're homophobic if you aren't attracted to people of the same sex. In their mind they may be a woman, but physically and more importantly in reality they are not. If someone wants to label that transphobic, than have at it.


FIFY.

This is a tactic employed sporadically by the left, and I may be in that small minority that empathizes with their plight but is turned off even more so by that tactic.

Children brought to the United States by illegal immigrants are not Americans, or Citizens. I'd prefer that we do the sensible thing and streamline their path to citizenship, but saying they are because they feel like they are, or because they should be, doesn't make it so. Likewise, health care should be available to all Americans, within reason, and without devastating financial consequences for any citizen if they can't afford the tab. Maybe there's a convincing moral argument for making health care a right of citizenship, but as it stands, it's not. And saying so won't make it so, and it doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard for acknowledging the way things are.

People's opinions of themselves and the world around them don't change the reality of that world. Endorsing those counterfactuals is indulging those delusions.

Who is "the left"?

As far as we are aware, it's one person's misguided opinion (in our estimation). Using terms like "the left" or "the right" makes it sound like everyone who might identify with that side of the political spectrum got together and decided this was going to be a strategy. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the majority of people on "the left" wouldn't agree with this position, anymore than most on "the right" agree with the more odious statements about immigrants, homosexuals, etc. that you can find people on the "the right" making.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding whether or not someone needs to disclose their trans status, yes, claiming that it's no one's business is a slim minority's position that may or may not have roots on one side of the political spectrum, and is controversial even among the LGBT community; but the broader subtext is pretty clear--that trans men are, in reality, women--and that fantasy has been indulged by the political left for quite some time now. As with health care being a right, as with children of illegal immigrants being Americans, and probably a host of other issues.

Arguing that something is, rather than should be, makes a more compelling argument for compliance and enforcement. It's an odious tactic that's rubbed me the wrong way since long before the effort to erase the distinction between trans people and the gender they would claim went mainstream.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing." -- Ron Swanson
Last edited by: sphere: Jan 10, 18 5:33
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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...but the broader subtext is pretty clear--that trans men are, in reality, women--and that fantasy has been indulged by the political left for quite some time now.

This.

I would have a lot more respect and sympathy for the agenda if it was presented in a way that is based in reality. If you want to argue that transgenders are people with a diagnosed disorder, but that having a disorder doesn't make you less of a person, and that the best way to treat the disorder is to allow gender reassignment or allow the person to present themselves as whatever gender they like, and that transgenders shouldn't have fewer rights because of their disorder, I could have a decent discussion and healthy respect for that opinion.

But the argument that is being forced is that transgenders ARE the sex they "identify" with, and that's just a lie. A Caucasian who identifies as black is not actually black. A man who identifies as a woman is not actually a woman. A cat who identifies as a space shuttle doesn't actually orbit the planet. When did reality become so easily cast aside?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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...but the broader subtext is pretty clear--that trans men are, in reality, women--and that fantasy has been indulged by the political left for quite some time now.


This.

I would have a lot more respect and sympathy for the agenda if it was presented in a way that is based in reality. If you want to argue that transgenders are people with a diagnosed disorder, but that having a disorder doesn't make you less of a person, and that the best way to treat the disorder is to allow gender reassignment or allow the person to present themselves as whatever gender they like, and that transgenders shouldn't have fewer rights because of their disorder, I could have a decent discussion and healthy respect for that opinion.

But the argument that is being forced is that transgenders ARE the sex they "identify" with, and that's just a lie. A Caucasian who identifies as black is not actually black. A man who identifies as a woman is not actually a woman. A cat who identifies as a space shuttle doesn't actually orbit the planet. When did reality become so easily cast aside?

You're asking this in the Lavender Room? ;-)

I'm sorry. There are only two genders (with the very, very rare biological exception of when a person carries both XX and XY chromosomes) as far as medical science has determined. Anything else is a mental disorder. But that doesn't mean, as you point out, that we then have free rein to discriminate against or otherwise oppress those with these gender identification disorders.

Neither are we morally or legally required to either celebrate or accept, as you say, the instances when a man says that he identifies as a woman and that we must therefore, treat him as a woman, including having sex with him as a hetero male might have sex with a hetero female, or face the consequences for our refusal to do so. That way lies madness.

There's a difference between tolerance -- which we're all obligated to display -- and acceptance, which we're under no moral, legal or ethical obligation to evidence.
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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That's a non-starter, unfortunately. Progressive philosophy is heavily invested in destigmatization, and characterizing transgenderism as a disorder, paradoxically, runs counter to that objective. Normalization is the end goal, and disorders are by definition undesirable, so even though it is by any reasonable definition a disorder, don't expect anyone in the modern LGBT advocacy camp to acknowledge it.

As I recall, conditions are only labeled disorders if they cause the individual distress and disfunction (paraphrasing DSM, here), so it would appear the tactic advances the strategy of normalizing transgenderism to the point that it ceases to be a disorder. Except, of course, that would require that we no longer recognize the distinction between men and women. That's a pretty substantial trade-off that, in my opinion, isn't worth the cost. Not to mention, entirely unnecessary.

Destigmatization, I think, stands a much better chance if left to time and changing cultural norms rather than imposing counterfactual definitions under threat of character assassination.

"Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing." -- Ron Swanson
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Re: Men who won't date transgender woman are transphobic and insecure [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I think the #metoo'ers are generally savvy enough to avoid this scud missile. Not that they really overlap, anyway.

Quote:
No, I Don't Have To Tell You I'm Trans Before Dating You

Demanding trans people come out to potential partners is transphobic.

...So when a cis person argues that a trans person has an obligation to come out to someone before dating them, they are saying trans people have an obligation to accommodate their transphobia. Plus, claiming that trans people are obligated to come out reinforces the idea that not being attracted to trans people is reasonable. But as I've pointed out, not being attracted to trans people supports the idea that transness is disgusting which is the basis for transphobic oppression.


This is madness.

There's a raging debate within the female feminist community about these male-to-female TGs and whether they have any right to claim oppression as a woman (leaving aside any discrimination arising as a result of their trans status). It's gotten ugly on more than a few occasions.

As you've said, pronouns have a purpose and a genuine meaning. Saying a thing isn't a thing just because you don't like that it's a thing is a fantasy construct.

I have a friend whose son is in the pre-med track at the University of Virginia (sophomore year now). I've helped him with writing of papers and such in several of his classes (including a class last year in Hindu/Urdu poetry... I'm not kidding ;-).

This last semester, seeking an easy A (the class had a 94% A-granting rating on some website related to finding "easy-A classes"), he took a gender studies class ("Language and Gender"). The teaching assistant conducting the class, a woman, started out the class with the typical "Xer," "Xe" etc. rundown of "Choose your own pronoun" stuff and it descended from there. I helped him write his papers and even read the reading assignments he was given.

OMFG, but we're in trouble, sir. I consider myself a hired-gun and mercenary when it comes to writing stuff for just about anyone who can pay me, but if not for the fact his father was an old battle buddy of mine, I'd have ended up quitting it.

"Gender is a choice" was one two-pager he had to produce.

"Language is a construct used to force gender selection" was another two-pager.

And this was at UVA, so I imagine this is going on everywhere
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