Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Lawyers - how is this possible
Quote | Reply
https://www.theguardian.com/...-public-vinod-khosla

Is it that there is a right of way across their land that they have stooped access to or are they just blocking public access roads

How does someone get away with this? What would their justification be legally?
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not a lawyer. The same issue has happened along Lake Michigan in places with a landowner blocking access to old public roads or discouraging in other ways by putting up signs or planting things in the way of the old road. They file lawsuit after lawsuit in townships with little money until they get their way.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thankyou surfrider foundation

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My understanding is there are public right aways i.e. de facto easements on the properties that allow the public access to the beach. Also some of the asshats kick people off the beach.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
David Geffen (and other homeowners) in Malibu have tried pulling the same shit. Typically they buy properties and gate off the existing right-of-way crossing them, essentially blocking public access to the beach.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What windywave said. The CA has what's called the Coastal Act, which essentially says (almost) the entire coastline must remain publicly accessible. You cannot use your private property to create your own private beach by blocking access.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What happens if you cut the lock on the gate to get access to the beach you are entitled to access?

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
What windywave said. The CA has what's called the Coastal Act, which essentially says (almost) the entire coastline must remain publicly accessible. You cannot use your private property to create your own private beach by blocking access.

What some NJ coastal communities pull to get around this is to restrict public parking anywhere near these public access points or jack up beach badge fees and make it difficult to actually get a beach badge.

Pretty much all of those efforts are shot down in court, time after time (thanks to surfer lawsuits, mostly).

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [len] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
len wrote:
What happens if you cut the lock on the gate to get access to the beach you are entitled to access?

Misdemeanor mischief?
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [klehner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know in Hawaii the hotels have to provide some limited parking so you can access the beach. But its like 6-8 spots in a parking lot for several hundred at times.

Life is full of froth and trouble, two things stand in stone
Kindness in another's troubles, courage in one's own
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If there is a public right of way why do people just not going down and remove barriers? What legal right can the owner invoke to stop them? If police are called is not the owner liable for blocking it? Hoe can it be trespass?
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/10/martins-beach-california-public-vinod-khosla

Is it that there is a right of way across their land that they have stooped access to or are they just blocking public access roads

How does someone get away with this? What would their justification be legally?

Does this vary by state? I thought you owned the land above the high tide mark. I.e. people could walk along the beach or in the water, but not above the high water mark. and they could only access it from public access points and not walk through your property (unless of course there were public easements.) Does it not work this way?
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
If there is a public right of way why do people just not going down and remove barriers? What legal right can the owner invoke to stop them? If police are called is not the owner liable for blocking it? Hoe can it be trespass?

The barriers are usually gated walls/fences. The right-of-way is likely quite small and nothing prevents a property owner from walling off his/her land from the masses. Likely, the gate across the right of way is put up appropriating the ROW for the property owner's own benefit. The police will not break down the walls or gates, but they likely will cite the property owner, but for those guys, a citation is nothing. They'll pay them ad nauseam because they're not criminal in nature and are chump change. The only way to get the gates down is to file suit like Surfrider did.

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [patf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
patf wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/10/martins-beach-california-public-vinod-khosla

Is it that there is a right of way across their land that they have stooped access to or are they just blocking public access roads

How does someone get away with this? What would their justification be legally?


Does this vary by state? I thought you owned the land above the high tide mark. I.e. people could walk along the beach or in the water, but not above the high water mark. and they could only access it from public access points and not walk through your property (unless of course there were public easements.) Does it not work this way?

That's pretty much how it works on Martha's Vineyard (and i think in the rest of Mass. as well). In addition, there are some beaches that have restricted access during the high season but are more generally available outside the summer months.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
What windywave said. The CA has what's called the Coastal Act, which essentially says (almost) the entire coastline must remain publicly accessible. You cannot use your private property to create your own private beach by blocking access.

The public trust doctrine is generally that the sand below the mean high tide line is held for the public. In addition, even though there are areas where the land above the mean high tide line is privately owned, the public still has some rights to cross that land for access.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
If there is a public right of way why do people just not going down and remove barriers? What legal right can the owner invoke to stop them? If police are called is not the owner liable for blocking it? Hoe can it be trespass?

I don't believe that an individual gets to choose where the access point is. That's a complicated process, often determined by historical access points. And my guess is that it may always be clear where the public right of way is. So if you remove a barrier, you do it at your own risk.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [patf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
patf wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/10/martins-beach-california-public-vinod-khosla

Is it that there is a right of way across their land that they have stooped access to or are they just blocking public access roads

How does someone get away with this? What would their justification be legally?


Does this vary by state? I thought you owned the land above the high tide mark. I.e. people could walk along the beach or in the water, but not above the high water mark. and they could only access it from public access points and not walk through your property (unless of course there were public easements.) Does it not work this way?

For the most part, that's right. However, the questions then becomes where the points of access are and what are the rules requiring and establishing access. This is something that is likely determined on a state by state basis. I'm not quite sure what the standard is for determining where access points are, where they are required, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some reasonable public access standard, where an access point might be required if the absence of one would unreasonably prohibit access.

Here's a fairly recent map of Southern California access points.

http://www.latimes.com/...ess-g-htmlstory.html

If you look at it, you'll see the access points are generally located where there is private ownership above the mean high tide line.
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [patf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes. For example I believe that all beaches in HI are public

In Cal public access is as noted below mean high tide
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [Danno] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Danno wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
If there is a public right of way why do people just not going down and remove barriers? What legal right can the owner invoke to stop them? If police are called is not the owner liable for blocking it? Hoe can it be trespass?


The barriers are usually gated walls/fences. The right-of-way is likely quite small and nothing prevents a property owner from walling off his/her land from the masses. Likely, the gate across the right of way is put up appropriating the ROW for the property owner's own benefit. The police will not break down the walls or gates, but they likely will cite the property owner, but for those guys, a citation is nothing. They'll pay them ad nauseam because they're not criminal in nature and are chump change. The only way to get the gates down is to file suit like Surfrider did.


He'll keep on going until he finds somebody who either takes or pony's up the money:

"Khosla’s attorneys, who have argued the case is a violation of his private property rights, are expected to appeal to the state Supreme Court, and eventually perhaps, the U.S. Supreme Court"

Unlimited funds...

He basically wants to force California to buy the property just for the access.

http://www.mercurynews.com/...ic-by-appeals-court/
Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 11, 17 22:44
Quote Reply
Re: Lawyers - how is this possible [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windschatten wrote:
Danno wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
If there is a public right of way why do people just not going down and remove barriers? What legal right can the owner invoke to stop them? If police are called is not the owner liable for blocking it? Hoe can it be trespass?


The barriers are usually gated walls/fences. The right-of-way is likely quite small and nothing prevents a property owner from walling off his/her land from the masses. Likely, the gate across the right of way is put up appropriating the ROW for the property owner's own benefit. The police will not break down the walls or gates, but they likely will cite the property owner, but for those guys, a citation is nothing. They'll pay them ad nauseam because they're not criminal in nature and are chump change. The only way to get the gates down is to file suit like Surfrider did.


He'll keep on going until he finds somebody who either takes or pony's up the money:

"Khosla’s attorneys, who have argued the case is a violation of his private property rights, are expected to appeal to the state Supreme Court, and eventually perhaps, the U.S. Supreme Court"

Unlimited funds...

He basically wants to force California to buy the property just for the access.

http://www.mercurynews.com/...ic-by-appeals-court/

Maybe he needs to recognize that the state has remedies that don't involve monetary compensation.
Quote Reply